In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes • Hacker News Board

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#81

Post by beachy » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #27

srameshc wrote: post #14

The same phenomenon is happening is happening in China & India and probably many other parts of he world as well. As we become more a more affluent society, our on water consumption increases. We need to raise awareness at a global level about preserving and saving water. https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/04/28-000-riv... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/photos/rivers...

Why not just price water to reflect supply realities? Why would anyone care about saving water when it's so dirt cheap? "Awareness" seems like a waste of time in comparison.

Exactly. My father in law lives in a town that has no water metering (and usually, but not always, plenty of water). In the summer he puts his sprinklers in 2 or 3 times a day, even when dire warnings are issued about water consumption. Human behavior is all about the impact on the back pocket (particularly if you are a pensioner).

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#82

Post by triceratops » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #77

hombre_fatal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just price water to reflect supply realities? Why would anyone care about saving water when it's so dirt cheap? "Awareness" seems like a waste of time in comparison.

Great idea. Then when the air gets dirty we can just charge people for purified air.

I get that you're being facetious. But if purified air became sufficiently expensive, and it was the only way to breathe, everyone really would get serious about polluting less.

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#83

Post by jbay808 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #54

r00fus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does market economics work if there's no way to prevent the tragedy of the commons?

That's a confusing question. The tragedy of the commons happens specifically when a resource is under- or un-priced.

If a free market is left alone to set prices, do any resources end up under-priced?

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#84

Post by beachy » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #19

quotemstr wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and build lots of desalination plants. We can engineer our way out of this problem without compromising our quality of life.

At what cost? Desalination is not cheap in terms of the energy it uses or even the environmental cost of what to do with the left over brine. We can certainly be less wasteful at home. Flushing toilet waste with potable water and even to some extent using potable water to bath in are incredible wastes of a precious resource.

Can't the brine be dumped back into the sea somewhere, leaving net saltiness the same? I can see that dumping point would become clogged, but presumably that would be only a local environmental issue.

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#85

Post by Haga » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

madez wrote: post #9

jxcl wrote: post #3

When some aquifers are drained, they take many thousands of years to replenish, a heavy rain season doesn't really help with these depleted aquifers. Here's a great video on Cody'sLab that explains how confined aquifers work and why they take so long to replenish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF4iCgxsZX4

It even shows why some aquifers may never replenish. The layer of the aquifer is not tightly compressed and can hold water. When the water is released and the layer starts to compress from the weight from above, its ability to hold water is permanently diminished.

Happens to Teheran and many Indian cities. Viewable via satellite.

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#86

Post by avip » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #27

srameshc wrote: post #14

The same phenomenon is happening is happening in China & India and probably many other parts of he world as well. As we become more a more affluent society, our on water consumption increases. We need to raise awareness at a global level about preserving and saving water. https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/04/28-000-riv... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/photos/rivers...

Why not just price water to reflect supply realities? Why would anyone care about saving water when it's so dirt cheap? "Awareness" seems like a waste of time in comparison.

Do you care about saving petrol?

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#87

Post by avip » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

RandallBrown wrote: post #50

VBprogrammer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what cost? Desalination is not cheap in terms of the energy it uses or even the environmental cost of what to do with the left over brine. We can certainly be less wasteful at home. Flushing toilet waste with potable water and even to some extent using potable water to bath in are incredible wastes of a precious resource.

Israel gets like half of their drinking water from desalination. With solar/wind/nuclear/tidal energy, it could be very inexpensive.

80% (and counting)

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#88

Post by bilbo0s » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #81

hombre_fatal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just price water to reflect supply realities? Why would anyone care about saving water when it's so dirt cheap? "Awareness" seems like a waste of time in comparison.

Exactly. My father in law lives in a town that has no water metering (and usually, but not always, plenty of water). In the summer he puts his sprinklers in 2 or 3 times a day, even when dire warnings are issued about water consumption. Human behavior is all about the impact on the back pocket (particularly if you are a pensioner).

Where does he live?

Serious question. I'd be interested in whether or not his behavior is a function of living in an area drowning in fresh water sources?

If he does not live in such an area, then I'm really interested in how the municipality is able to keep the price of water that low? That would seem to defy the rule of supply and demand in my mind.

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#89

Post by mentat » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

scribu wrote: post #76

40acres wrote: post #45

A local groundwater management agency in Ventura County, CA recently started a pilot program that established a groundwater market among farmers in the county. Following the early 2010s drought in California, laws were enacted to cap and eventually reduce the amount of groundwater that can be extracted. Recent advancements in water usage tracking infrastructure, combined with the law has led to a natural environment…

> Interestingly, farmers view water usage as a trade secret I wonder why. Do slight changes in irrigation patterns have a significant effect on crops?

Water usage combined with weather information likely gives competitive advantage is futures markets.

Re: In the US, wells being drilled ever deeper as groundwater vanishes

#90

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #73

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we as a society have decided that we are all better off if it's cheap enough that poor people can still use it on a whim. Of course this results in some people over-using but we think that's less of a problem.

I don’t know about the rest of the US, but in SF water pricing is tiered. A small amount costs x per gallon. A larger amount costs 2x per gallon. And even larger amount costs 4x per gallon, etc. Unfortunately the rich can still abuse this, as it’s not actually proportionate to income. I wish more public fees were, like speeding tickets, car registration costs, etc, so that rich/poor impact was more normalized. N.B. T…

Tiered pricing seems like a decent compromise.

Scaled pricing is stupid. I didn't work my ass off climbing the ladder just to get screwed out of the same fraction of my money by the government as when I brought home a few hundred a week. If you want to cut the poor a break then make fees and fines tax deductible.