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I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

independent.co.uk

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Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#161

Post by DanBC »

lonelappde wrote: post #18
jsty wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has famously strict libel laws, and notably the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove the truth of their defamatory speech. https://www.burnetts.co.uk/publications/blogs/libel-and-slan... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law

Before 2013 in the UK, not even truth was enough of a defense. Truths that caused harm (even justifiable harm) were still actionable. In Austria it's still illegal to make true comments that offend religion sensibilities.

> Before 2013 in the UK, not even truth was enough of a defense.

Wasn't justification a different name for a truth defence?

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#162

Post by dahdum »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #43

I actually think I've been "blacklisted" at a government agency in my country, or at least someone with hiring power must be working there who specifically does not want to hire me. Two reasons - 1. some years ago there was a job listing at the agency for a programmer with experience in a governmental specification that I was the technical guy in the working group that made the specification, for heavy experience in…

You could be right, but "more qualified" doesn't have to mean "technical expertise in this exact standard". They could easily be weighing factors such as previous leadership experience, team/group experience, stated career goals, stated interests, demeanor, or experience in other tangential technologies.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#163

Post by bena »

sysbinn wrote: post #153
bena wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then, if free will does not exist, you are predetermined to believe that murderers should be rehabilitated. You took one snippet out of context. The point of the statement wasn't that "murderers should be punished". The point of the post was to highlight that if free will does not exist, then agency is not something that exists. You don't get the choice. Morality does not exist because like someone else's rock ex…

Yes, like I said fate decides. I'm not saying we have control and I wrote responses but they're dead. I think they're still good responses and even if fate decided.

The issue is that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Free will's existence not mattering doesn't do anything for the "thrilling observations" or whatever. It says nothing to whether things get better or worse.

Not to mention, you have no choice whether you find it thrilling or not. So trying to convince someone else that it is thrilling is also implicitly figuring people have some sort of free will or discretion.

And you're assuming that you're right and that people need to get on board because "being aware of the nature of reality is a good thing". Well, the nature of reality is that whether free will exists is pointless.

You don't even address your cherry-picking of my other comment.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#164

Post by Silhouette »

pjc50 wrote: post #97
Grue3 wrote: post #82

>I was able to ask my PhD college, and several other institutions, to see all emails in which my name appeared in either the subject line or the body of the email. The scariest part is that this is apparently possible in countries under the jurisdiction of GDPR now (and possibly even outside of it). Your private emails talking about a third party might be exposed at the request of the said third party. Does no one el…

You are the "data controller" for your own emails. Emails stored on your employer's system are under their remit as the "data controller" to whom the subject access requests will be made. Emails on your employer's system are "your" or "private" only in a very limited sense. GDPR does not entitle random people to leaf through your gmail. (Even without data protection law this kind of thing can still happen during the…

This issue still seems to be much more ambiguous than good law should be.

Here is an article from just over a year ago, in which an actual lawyer specialising in IT and privacy is quoted, explaining how something remarkably similar to the situation we're discussing today wasn't going to happen and it was all fear and misinterpretation:

https://thenextweb.com/eu/2018/05/03/no-gdpr-wont-let-you-re...

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#165

Post by bena »

ericb wrote: post #143
icebraining wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's no free will, the people punishing murderers have no choice to rehabilitate instead. Choosing between punishing or rehabilitating requires free will.

No, I think the point made above is that you can still choose punishment because even with no free will involved, the future decision calculations need to observe a strong penalty to deciding yes for murder. This doesn't require free will any more than an if-then I write in code requires it.

But your if-then exhibits no independent action. It just is. It can't "choose", it just takes input and gives a predetermined output based on that input.

If free will does not exist, you do not have a choice. It's disingenuous to both argue that free will does not exist and to proclaim that we should do anything. Or that we can make any sort of choice.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#166

Post by neonate »

Singletoned wrote: post #35

As a fellow Aspy, I started reading this thinking, I bet he's a bit of a difficult person. Maybe an Aspy. > Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Aspergers could be a reasonable explanation. Ah! Yes, I can guess which one of those three is the reason people found you difficult.

Probably a she? The author is listed as Dora B.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#167

Post by OtterEcho »

lm28469 wrote: post #63
nness wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author mentions their Aspergers; which means the content of those emails, such as comments like 'stupid,' could be seen as coded discrimination. In nearly all of Europe, intellectual disabilities are a topic of non-discrimination legislation. Ignoring the legal arm-chairing; universities and colleges retaining staff who discriminate students based on intellectual disabilities could face down some bad PR.

I wouldn't go down that road ... You can fit a definition of "stupid" and have Asperger without the former being caused by the latter. Is saying your black coworker under-performs a form a racism ? Your female coworker being stupid would be sexism (but only if you're a man of course) ?

At the risk of missing the big picture, I think comments on their intelligence correlates to discrimination due to intellectual disabilities in a way race and gender would not.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#168

Post by syssbinn »

bena wrote: post #163
sysbinn wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, like I said fate decides. I'm not saying we have control and I wrote responses but they're dead. I think they're still good responses and even if fate decided.

The issue is that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Free will's existence not mattering doesn't do anything for the "thrilling observations" or whatever. It says nothing to whether things get better or worse. Not to mention, you have no choice whether you find it thrilling or not. So trying to convince someone else that it is thrilling is also implicitly figuring people have some sort of free will or di…

I don't think there is a disagreement here. I agree with your long post conveying it's all fate in the end. I can still write about what I think while observing everything and knowing fate has made my impression. I just like the discussion because who knows if today will be the day to read something thought provoking around it.

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince anyone something is thrilling. I just find it thrilling and even while knowing I don't have free will in any regard of my life.

I think nobody can be right in the traditional sense (traditionally assuming free will exists and one person can be right). My views are just of how I wish society functioned because I think I would prefer to live in a society that cared about the misfortunate by fate. Maybe that's how the multiverse would work for people moving (after death) to a universe more suited for how they turned out. Still wouldn't bring free will but would be cool.

Anyway I'm not trying to cherry pick. I just thought I would express myself best with what I pulled out to write more. Thanks very much for the discussion!

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#169

Post by bhelkey »

Silhouette wrote: post #164
pjc50 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the "data controller" for your own emails. Emails stored on your employer's system are under their remit as the "data controller" to whom the subject access requests will be made. Emails on your employer's system are "your" or "private" only in a very limited sense. GDPR does not entitle random people to leaf through your gmail. (Even without data protection law this kind of thing can still happen during the…

This issue still seems to be much more ambiguous than good law should be. Here is an article from just over a year ago, in which an actual lawyer specialising in IT and privacy is quoted, explaining how something remarkably similar to the situation we're discussing today wasn't going to happen and it was all fear and misinterpretation: https://thenextweb.com/eu/2018/05/03/no-gdpr-wont-let-you-re...

> However, European case law clearly states that data such as emails your boss has sent about you is exempt from this.

> “The reason behind this exemption is that those internal messages contain the personal thoughts of your boss. The right of access does not extend to all the personal messages, thoughts and ideas people have about you. So, based on the GDPR, you will not be able to access them,” says Zadeh.

Oops.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#170

Post by bryanrasmussen »

dahdum wrote: post #162
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #43

I actually think I've been "blacklisted" at a government agency in my country, or at least someone with hiring power must be working there who specifically does not want to hire me. Two reasons - 1. some years ago there was a job listing at the agency for a programmer with experience in a governmental specification that I was the technical guy in the working group that made the specification, for heavy experience in…

You could be right, but "more qualified" doesn't have to mean "technical expertise in this exact standard". They could easily be weighing factors such as previous leadership experience, team/group experience, stated career goals, stated interests, demeanor, or experience in other tangential technologies.

there was nothing stated about anything like any of that in the announcement, I mean it was such a close match to me that I was awfully tempted to send back an email "what do you mean more experienced, who is the more experienced person in the country for these things you say you want than I"
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