I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails • Hacker News Board

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#71

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

austhrow743 wrote: post #56

hycaria wrote: post #5

>Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Aspergers could be a reasonable explanation. Easier to resort to such hypotheses than be self critical, I guess. Do we really fall in the category where one student with apparently decent thesis results gets ostarcized by her advisor AND the examiners, where no one in the faculty or comittee would stand for…

I don't understand how that's not being self critical. On finding that they're not well liked they thought up aspects of their personality others might not like.

It's a list of things that others might dislike, which are not under their own control. Thus shifting the blame onto others rather than considering that one's own actions may be the problem.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#72

Post by ohaideredevs » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #58

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

I agree with you 100%, but I think it's better to 'choose' to believe you can do better, despite knowing, factually, that you are just a product of your environment.

In other words, "I can improve myself" is a pragmatic outlook.

Of course, you can respond with "but you can't even choose that outlook", which I don't disagree with.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#73

Post by matthewheath » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #70

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

This is a fascinating thing to think about. Some properties like missiong legs are thought of as disabilities and often compensated for by the state. But where is the line? Is depression (hindering ones ability to work or lead a happy life) a disability, or just being not intelligent enough to be a good programmer?

In the UK, depression can be considered a disability under the Equality Act 2010. Anyone with such a disability would be entitled to appropriate compensation from the state (social security benefits) and adjustments in the workplace, if necessary.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#74

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #16

mattmanser wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For libel and slander, calling him stupid when he passed the exams set by the very examiner himself. Loss of earnings, etc. Also against the universities for breach of the blacklisting prohibitions in the employment act. Their lack of checks and balances against this informal blacklist has left them wide open to be sued.

That just gets you into a Catch-22... being seen suing previous employers and supervisors will make it even harder to get hired in that field, and possibly any other as well. If the person in question is not really unpleasant (and I don't know that they are not, but let's take it as given for a moment), my suggestion would be doing some strong networking. If you interact with people at conferences and are clearly not…

To an extent, but the private sector in the UK learnt a long time ago to simply refuse to give a reference instead of detailing their actual (disprovable) bad opinion.

We're only hearing one side, but given his professional accomplishment of people using his textbook in Masters courses, this comes across as a personal vendetta. You don't say those sort of things about someone who clearly does have talent unless you want to cause harm.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#75

Post by aj7 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

WE ARE NOT cellular-automata chugging along according to the laws of physics. In any sense, degree, or verified theory. In my OPINION, cellular automata fascination is an obsessive disorder that geniuses are at risk for, ca. Fredkin, Feynman, Wolfram. The operant word is disorder.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#76

Post by turk73 » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #58

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

Free will is an illusion and simply it doesn't exist. You cannot make either a choice or decision that's truly your own. Simply, you cannot without being effected by the system you're in. People don't choose the life they're born into and why does anything that comes after birth be assumed differently. The answer cultural conditioning and from religious ideology that has rooted deeply into society. The belief that go…

Oh whatever. I can walk the fuck out of my job and quit today if I so choose. Is that not free will? I didn't say there would not be consequences, only that it is 100% possible as I've done that very thing in the past.

One of my relatives majored in Philosophy and has his head up his own ass in all this stuff. I find him quite amusing. He reads too many books and has suffered 0.0 actual hardships in his life and yet he is somehow an expert and gleefully gives other people lots of shitty advice.

And I did choose my own life--given my early circumstances and what I was "born into" I eventually rejected 99% of it, moved away, and created my own more positive life. It's hard to break the mold, but certainly not impossible. Cultural conditioning and religion are bullshit traps, same as collectivism, which is another huge, unbelievable lie. I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but you can break free.

As far as being a "difficult person" I own that!

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#77

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #70

air7 wrote: post #32

> Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Asperger's could be a reasonable explanation. It's quite likely that ones background and developmental disorders shape one's personality. However, it's still their personality. So what if it has a reason? This touches on the dark abyss of "free will". In some sense all we are is a cellular-automata chugging…

This is a fascinating thing to think about. Some properties like missiong legs are thought of as disabilities and often compensated for by the state. But where is the line? Is depression (hindering ones ability to work or lead a happy life) a disability, or just being not intelligent enough to be a good programmer?

In England autism counts as a disability if the autistic person thinks it is a disability: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/6

Depression can be a disability if it lasts long enough. Otherwise it's a simple illness and employers should deal with it in the same way as other illness.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#78

Post by ijpoijpoihpiuoh » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

jsty wrote: post #65

tomatocracy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there needs to be an act of publication for defamation law to be engaged though. It might be rather hard to argue that private emails reach that bar.

I'd note that the relevant definition of publish isn't the common-sense use (i.e. make available publicly), but merely "the communication of the defamatory matter to a third person" [0]. Indeed the first link in my prior post specifically calls out defamation via private methods of communication (texting) as something that may be actionable. [0] http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/court/reporti...

It seems like the reform act of 2013 might make these comments in-bounds:

Honest opinion: It is a defence for defamation, to show the statement complained of was a statement of opinion; that it indicated, in general or specific terms, the basis of the opinion; that an honest person could have held the opinion on any fact which existed when the statement was published, including any fact in a privileged statement that was pre-published. The defence is defeated if the claimant shows the defendant did not hold the opinion.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#79

Post by o09rdk » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

hycaria wrote: post #5

>Where my personality was called into question perhaps my working-class background, my northern accent, and my Aspergers could be a reasonable explanation. Easier to resort to such hypotheses than be self critical, I guess. Do we really fall in the category where one student with apparently decent thesis results gets ostarcized by her advisor AND the examiners, where no one in the faculty or comittee would stand for…

Others have expressed thoughts I had as well, but to add:

I used to basically have your opinion, and then had two experiences that shifted my perspective.

The first was a colleague who was known for being overly frank, to put it mildly; for not having any internal controls on sharing what was on his mind. He was (and is) a brilliant individual who is every bit as competent as people much more accomplished than him. I watched him lose out on job prospect after prospect, and initially sort of thought "well, being able to work with someone easily is important." Eventually, though, I realized that what is far more insidious are all the narcissistic psychopaths who are socially skilled. This guy, while brash, actually was well-meaning and had a heart. I'd far rather work with him than many of the other horrible individuals I've worked with; he's at least as deserving of better employment, if not more.

The second was a case where we were hiring, and this brilliant individual applied. Everyone agreed he was heads above the best -- this being a faculty position at a research institution. Eventually everyone started complaining about how socially awkward he was, how his presentational style was difficult, and how he did these weird things in interviews. The thing was, he wasn't mean or cruel or anything like that, or even markedly eccentric, just a little weird. Someone objected to this, pointing out that it was bizarre for us to be dismissing someone who was described as a genius in letters, and that we agreed was such, because of socially unusual (but not difficult) behavior. The question this person on the hiring committee raised was "what are we actually wanting? What is our mission?" The applicant didn't get the job, and it always struck me as unfortunate.

I guess my point is that even if someone is unpleasant to work with, sometimes that's not the most important thing, and even when it is important, the way that they are unpleasant matters. This isn't even getting into how capricious and cruel people can be in their assessments of others' behaviors.

Re: I thought I was being ‘blacklisted’, so I demanded to see colleagues’ emails

#80

Post by codeulike » Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #49

codeulike wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its been clear from the start that emails would be covered by GDPR, and I believe that was the intent. edit: Official GDPR site, page on email: https://gdpr.eu/email-encryption/ also, see the widely circulated 'GDPR letter from hell', which is a sort of worst-case access-to-data request that could be made under the legislation: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nightmare-letter-subject-acce... In particular, please tell…

Has it? I've done much reading on the GDPR, and it certainly wasn't clear to me. "Data", of course - but regardless of technicality, I see email/slack/IM messages more as "personal communication" than "data".

Yes definitely email/slack/and IM. The EU was not kidding around with this. Its a walloping huge piece of legislation with wide reaching implications.