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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#201

Post by pas »

noobermin wrote: post #48

May be this is just too much cynicism but isn't it possible the GAO just failed to do what it was supposed to do and is offering that paragraph as a poor way to explain away their failure? The trend of it being more expensive in the US is a real, statistically determinable fact. That hints there are structural reasons for it. They should at least give a stab at it rather than throwing up their hands and claiming ther…

yes, the report is shit.

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/07/22/new-report-on-... + see the design-build vs design then build comment(s) too.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#202

Post by pas »

arthur5005 wrote: post #58

I’m surprised by the cynicism here. Working in software we know that high complexity projects are _really_ hard to estimate. Hofstadter's Law says it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. Too many unknown unknowns. If the projects were broken down into smaller chunks, the incremental costs would be better understood as the project progressed.

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/07/22/new-report-on-... ctrl-f design-build.

basically, if you order a feasibility study, a design and then separately an implementation, you can keep costs under control. if you do it all together, you gonna have overrun time.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#203

Post by pas »

mcphage wrote: post #94
AcerbicZero wrote: post #88

I think the answer is in the first few lines actually. >Here are the instructions Congress gave last March: Not later than 9 months after the enactment of this act, the GAO shall report to the House and Senate >Sixteen months later, the GAO has produced its report and it doesn’t actually perform the cost comparisons as instructed. Bureaucracy at its finest. Over promise, under deliver, and make sure its late too, jus…

> I think the answer is in the first few lines actually. Not really, given that the main focus of the rest of the article was about how what was asked of them is difficult to determine, and not even well defined.

That's just a long excuse, an appeal for incompetence, to hide the intent of face saving: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/07/22/new-report-on-...

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#204

Post by Gibbon1 »

smolder wrote: post #112
Analemma_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Cultural differences: Japan is pretty homogenous and they seem to see themselves as part of a whole whereas in the US, for example, exploiting your fellow citizens for profit is almost a matter of duty in business.

yakuza would probably be mortified if they were responsible for things going badly.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#205

Post by dimitar »

I love how the word "corruption" doesn't appear once in the text. If this was an article about Eastern Europe for example it would be in every paragraph.

So, I'm wondering if corruption overemphasized in my region and Project Management is just very hard, or there is corruption in the US and rest of the English speaking countries as well, but people are not talking about it much.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#206

Post by shmat »

Anechoic wrote: post #69
tomohawk wrote: post #36

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

Here is another way to think about that story: DOT and their proven, reliable contractor had experience with a certain method of rehabbing the joints between concrete slabs. A new technique was tried, and the first few attempts were not done well. The new technique showed promise, but there was a concern that if the new technique failed, there would be consequences to the state for trying a new technique rather than…

Sometimes new techniques turn out to be a disaster. I-495 in Massachusetts was built using a new technique for concrete roadways. Concrete is normally not used to build roads in New England because it doesn't handle frost heaves. The new technique "solved" that problem. The result was that every inch of I-495 has had to be rebuilt. Even worse, the first "rebuild" was to lay asphalt over the concrete and then subsequently everything had to be ripped out and done again.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#207

Post by ijpoijpoihpiuoh »

Timothy055 wrote: post #159
ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No pedestrians or bikes on the interstate. It's likely the figure is just a large exaggeration.

Or it’s multiplied over the expected life of the roadway?

Since the figure quoted is "X deaths per year", that that would be a large exaggeration, as I said, right?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#208

Post by kilotaras »

afarrell wrote: post #60
daenz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The further you are removed from "other people" with regards to "other people's money", the easier it is to waste/pocket/embezzle. Fixing that problem would go a long way.

The solution to that problem in many places is currently to have lists of approved suppliers.

The better alternative is forcing supplier to get an insurance.

e.g. we want a road that will be X feet wide and will last Y years provided no earthquakes. Maintenance cost + Z dollars per day closed comes from insurance.

Want to use old boring tech - you insurance cost is lower. Want to try something new and shiny. Your insurance rate is higher at first, but may go down in the future.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#209

Post by magduf »

siphon22 wrote: post #157
late2part wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American and I don't wreck, vandalize or spray grafiti. I've seen same in Japan, Brazil, India, Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris, etc... (and US). Your generalizations are lazy.

You are one American. Generally, in American culture, the things I described are commonplace and par for the course while in East Asian countries (or other smaller, homogenous countries) not so much. If it does happen sometimes in those places, it is generally far less acceptable while in America you must simply accept it and factor it into the cost of operation. Having lived here all my life, it is funny to see anyo…

Yeah, I'm American too, and I don't understand why people like the OP are so willing to defend this country against claims that are so obviously true. Vandalism and graffiti are very common in America, though of course it really depends on the area. There's plenty of graffiti in Europe too. Japan, no.

I find it really odd how some people will say good things about other place's cultures, but then deny that culture is a factor when discussing the bad parts about a place. Culture is a real thing, it really does exist, and it isn't always good.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#210

Post by magduf »

Analemma_ wrote: post #89
aldoushuxley001 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly they switched contractors because of corruption. Here in Montreal, it's well known that the mob runs the construction industry and quite frankly you're not allowed to even bid on contracts without their say so, otherwise you'll get visited for a very frank chat. So I can't speak for why infrastructure is expensive elsewhere, but atleast here in Quebec (& likely RoC) it's simply because of corruption.…

The thing is, even if this is true, it still doesn’t explain the cost difference between us and e.g. Japan. Construction firms and public infrastructure works in Japan have well-known ties to the yakuza, yet they still finish these at way lower costs than us (even though labor is more expensive!) Why?

Even the Yakuza feel a sense of social obligation.
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