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How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

nytimes.com

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Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#171

Post by meshr »

magduf wrote: post #119
meshr wrote: post #28

Intellectuals should stop sharing their knowledge/skills with obscurantists. They should allow obscurantists to fail or at least to make obscurantists to depend on intellectuals. The motto should be "first control then money gaining or sharing"

Well in places where the intellectuals are fleeing, that's basically what they're doing, no? They're not trying to control the money exactly, but they are ceasing to share their skills with the rest of the people in that country, and removing themselves from its economy.

I don’t think it is right. They harm their selves much more than its country. Dictator will easily buy their replacement from free world when needed. The problem is that intellectuals could be bought and sold because there are no contract commitments on how to use the knowledge. You are even free to use your knowledge against your teacher to make him to leave the country.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#172

Post by philwelch »

Steko wrote: post #165
philwelch wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing academic institutions isn't inherently anti-intellectual, any more than criticizing government institutions makes you an anarchist.

He's not criticizing 'the institutions' so much as their ideas and modernism itself which, funny enough, is one of the 14 handy 'heuristics' for identifing nascent facism that Eco listed in 1995 [1]. It's a good list. At the risk of courting Godwin I'd suggest that 'concentration camps' would be a good 15th point but I guess it's covered more generally. [1] https://kottke.org/16/11/the-14-features-of-eternal-fascism

The standard criticism of academia these days is that it has abandoned modernism for postmodernism, not that it's too modernist.

Fascism itself was also very modernist in many ways, such as the obsession with industry and technology, the aspiration to innovate "beyond" liberalism and Marxism, and even the artistic and architectural styles it adopted.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#173

Post by philwelch »

somlor wrote: post #169
philwelch wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Antifa: organization with no leadership structure, composed of citizens who are dedicated to preventing fascism from spreading, using means that are historically proven to work. "Historically proven to work"? Since when have leftist street gangs ever stopped a fascist movement from rising to power? It was the fear of leftist street violence that won whatever small degree of public support the SA had, bolstered the…

The "43 Group" comes to mind. https://vimeo.com/64299989

...so postwar Britain was at serious risk of being taken over by fascists? Probably something more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSVqLHghLpw

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#174

Post by meshr »

duxup wrote: post #67
meshr wrote: post #28

Intellectuals should stop sharing their knowledge/skills with obscurantists. They should allow obscurantists to fail or at least to make obscurantists to depend on intellectuals. The motto should be "first control then money gaining or sharing"

>Intellectuals should stop sharing their knowledge/skills with obscurantists. What does this mean?

You shouldn’t teach anyone how to make a "weapon" if you can’t be sure that it won’t be used against other intellectuals. See also my reply above.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#175

Post by discreteevent »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #157
sgnelson wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past few years, it seems to me, that HN is suffering a bit from the eternal september effect. It seems (again, to me) that many HN commentators are very technically knowledgeable, but are sorely lacking in understanding politics, social sciences, liberal arts, etc. It also seems (again, to me) that there has been a lot more authoritarian beliefs expressed by the comments. Take my opinion and observations for…

In my experience, it's usually the people who've been here for long that tend to express views differing from what we're all supposed to believe. So maybe it's a reverse eternal September? Maybe it's a reflection of a growing disillusionment with geopolitics and its reporting in western media? I mean, the story looks pretty damning on the face of it, but you have to consider that the last time the same media called a…

The guy was bad and the action taken was bad. One can't be afraid to say something in case someone might overreact to it.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#176

Post by taurath »

mhh__ wrote: post #7

"People have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove God help us

I used to just be repulsed by talk like this, but I've started to find it interesting. Its useful to tease out what is meant here.

Experts - when we think of them, we think of professionals with experience, people who've done research on the subjects, and in general just people who are better informed than the public.

What I think the people who say things like "enough with the experts", I find it to be entirely within a political/media context - many of whom are paid lobbyists, industry representatives, people with a lot of paper qualifications with their own agenda, etc. AKA, bullshit artists. A call against them is a call against systemic corruption, since they are a primary tool the powerful use to keep the public's consent.

The other side of that is a blanket callout against all experts obviously is just anti-intellectualism. This pessimistic worldview is that well since we can't tell which experts are telling the truth, I'm going to go with what I believe, and not listen to anything to the contrary. This is quite easy to criticize - however I think that those that criticize it aren't always taking into account that they do it as well, even if less often or on a less global scale.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#177

Post by tepidandroid »

antod wrote: post #170
tepidandroid wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to note that the NYT publishes this damning piece mere weeks after Erdogan green-lighted Turkey's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems despite the U.S threatening to kick them out of the F-35 program if they did so. The story appears at a time when an important NATO ally is straying from the pack and leaning instead towards Russia's sphere of influence. My prediction is that we will be seeing mo…

or... damning articles about the situation in Turkey have been popping up regularly for 5ish years now. IMO they need to keep popping up frankly. Likewise, Turkey's increasing moves away from NATO towards Russia were always going to reach a threshold where some steplike point was crossed (the F-35 vs S-400 thing) and some public consequences happened. I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufa…

I can respect your point of view as I think that it's based on some historical realities that cannot be so easily dismissed.

However if you look at the history of NYT articles on Turkey and Erdogan going back years [1], there are scant few articles that are critical of Turkey or Erdogan in the way this and other articles in the past weeks and months have been (beginning from the time Turkey began to drift away from its traditional allies). Recent articles have directly called into question the legitimacy of the AKP and Erdogan himself who was elected through a democratic process.

> I would've thought if this particular timing was a case of "Manufacturing Consent" rather than just a coincidence, it would've happened earlier.

From my point of view, this article and others like it could be interpreted as a very early precursor to forced regime change in Turkey. Time will tell if I am correct. Turkey switching sides presents an existential threat to NATO and the balance of power in region, especially considering the power of Turkey's military and Erdogan's stance on the issue of Israel and Palestine.

To me, they could be seen as examples of the mainstream media laying the groundwork -building popular support- for some kind of future, punitive military or economic action. They look suspiciously like the articles printed in the lead-up to the disasters of Libya, Iraq, Syria. Of course, this is all just speculation, based on how the informal American propaganda apparatus (described by Chomsky) has operated in the past.

There are many, many problems with Turkey and Erdogan and there is much to answer for, but I'm of the opinion that U.S style regime change is not the solution. I think it behooves us to be extremely critical and even suspicious of any source of information that was designed for mass dissemination and consumption.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=erdogan&sort=newest

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#178

Post by sjg007 »

baxtr wrote: post #59

My favorite concept right now is the “meritocracy of ideas” - a fancy way of saying that the best ideas win. Somehow I feel that this is a core driver for success, in an organization, small or big. So by excluding smart people and their ideas you may significantly limit yourself and the futures your organization.

Meritocracy.... a concept that sounds good in principle but ends up being disastrous. The problem is the roots of the word itself.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#179

Post by sjg007 »

vkou wrote: post #88
Dumblydorr wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define meritocracy? Ideas are infectious and they clearly do not need truthful or academic merit to spread like wildfire.

Tautalogically, in the same sham way that we generally define meritocracy. "These ideas won, because, clearly, they are the best." "These people are successful, because, clearly, they are the best."

This is insightful. The other part is that some ideas matter and most don’t.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#180

Post by sjg007 »

atoav wrote: post #149

As somebody who grew up in a central european province governed by popularist right wingers and then left, this was a question that always bugged me: If I am leaving, am I not making it worse there? But should I really go through unbearable suffering in an environment that is so corrupt, so completely devoid of rationality that the only few semi-okay people you know start acting like trauma victims, never just able t…

Depends on your philosophy. You could effect greater change outside the country for example. Or you could stay inside and create a revolution. I think the creative difference would be your resources and network.
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