Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? The point michael gove was making, if you're not aware, was to try and shun any attempt at "expert"-ing. Within the context of Brexit, the leavers had their own group of "experts" i.e. the ERG but any attempt at economic prediction was clearly shunned on the grounds of it being "Project Fear" despite no specific biases being demonstrated. Because that's the only way, along with blatant lies, to get people bel…
As it looked for a foreigner, reading almost exclusively mainstream media, when I happened to come by, not only were not pro-staying experts shunned, rather I was stunned for the outcome, because I never heard anything pro-leaving, or any expectation it would end this way. Surely Brexit guys mean it not like Erdogan (i.e. jail time), but more like "if media don't serve as a feedback channel, both voters and elites co…
How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
131–140 of 224 posts
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#132Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd be curious about some substantive examples. I have seen that assertion frequently made, and even have attended multiple seminars on the topic (I have some friends very worried about this issue) as well as some FIRE meetings and fundraisers. Yet I typically see the same few examples repeated and amplified. FIRE loves to talk about the cases it has challenged under Title IX -- and it always wins, because the law co…
Note I'm not the best one to provide you with numerous examples because I don't know where the document is that has detailed all of the examples in the last few years. But hearing about this is fairly frequently. 1. There have been protests about conservative speakers at campuses and universities whom have pulled shady stuff on trying to prevent the speakers from coming. (there was a Dave Rubin one where he was magic…
A few things:
- Protests are valid free speech expressions.
- Holding an entire protest as invalid due to a small number of individual's actions is unfair.
- Many of those conservative speakers aren't trying to spread discourse, but trying to create an outrage and play off of that (evidence exists of the malignant intent). While perhaps being protected by the 1st amendment, that's academic dishonesty. And we should not accept prima facie the arguments they're being oppressed.
- The portland professor was being brought up based on academic dishonesty, human experimentation, process, and ethics. We're going to need better evidence not to take the disciplinary board at face value.
Basically "I hear about this frequently" and "there have been..." is pretty weak evidence. It's mainly relying upon the recency bias, availability cascade, base rate neglect, and our inability to assess large events.
For example, the Berkeley campus protest is constantly referred to. The problem is this is a splashy example which distorts people's thinking. People rarely talk about the thousands and thousands of conservative speakers that hold events without a hitch. We cannot talk about a systematic risk by only referring to events that are so rare that we keep on referring to the same one for the last several years! That is _by definition_ the opposite of a systematic bias/risk.
Basically I call serious BS. Lack of data, cherrypicking stark examples, and the reuse of the same events over and over again while appealing to the impression that there should be more events like this, when there are not, is garbage.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
The subservience of intellectualism to politics seems obvious to me. Typical public online discourse is shackled. Goodhart's law is a big mechanic purging intellectual discussion. If you're in a right leaning, 'non political' forum and you post about potential impacts of climate change, you'll almost certainly be put on blast. If you're in a left leaning, 'non political' forum and someone posts 'climate change is goi…
So you don't have sources or citations for your viewpoint, just handwaving about "obvious to me", "Typical". You should just come right out and say it, I think.
I stand by my handwaving as relevant, common experience that indicates an erosion of intellectual discourse. It should be patently obvious that I didn't have any sources for what I said specifically. There's no parenthetical or APA formatted links anywhere!
Edit: Okay, I'll go run an experiment and come back with the data. Maybe that's a compromise.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#135Deplatforming is just bad. If you can't win your argument without getting rid of anyone who disagrees with you, what does that say? Evicting professors and others from universities. Blocking access to social media. Closing down newspapers and other new outlets. And it doesn't matter who's doing it. Erdogan. Carlos Maza. Antifa. None of them are doing anything constructive.
You're wrong about this. If you think that the best ideas naturally win out you're either ignorant (think of how fast bad ideas can spread), or purposefully pushing this "both sides"/horseshoe theory/false equivalence to further impede those who are actually trying to stop fascism.
The "deplatformers" you're referencing here wield entirely different magnitudes of power:
Erdogan: literally an authoritarian dictator
Carlos Maza: journalist who brought attention to the fact that hateful speech has real violent effects on people (it's important that Crowder's videos were only demonetized, not removed, or his channel suspended, and that this action was taken by Youtube).
Antifa: organization with no leadership structure, composed of citizens who are dedicated to preventing fascism from spreading, using means that are historically proven to work.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#136We had something like this in 1968 in Poland with communist propaganda condemning intelectuals and cosmpolitans and workers activists beating students on the streets (like they do in HK these days). Sztoptanski called that Dictatorship of Dishrags. Generally the best weapon against such times is irony and a sense of humor and grotesque. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Szpota%C5%84ski
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have any sources for this purge of US intelectuals?
A Harvard Law Professor was forced to step down due students feeling "Unsafe" over clients he was representing in court. There are many similar examples like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/opinion/harvard-ronald-su...
This is a role whereby he lives in close proximity to students, acts as an mentor and helps students with all sorts of things, like for example if a student was sexually assaulted - their dean is supposed to be on their side.
Students are right to question if he takes sexual assault seriously if he represents Weinstein. There are many other fine lawyers, and this was a totally voluntary job he took on.
His real job, which it certainly appears like he shirked, is to be the best advocate for his students, to help them navigate college, which is often a difficult time.
It's easy to say that his voluntary role in the defense of Weinstein has no merit or conflict with his job. But is that really true? You can say "students should grow up" or toughen up or something, but is that the kind of advice you'd offer to your own child?
I think not.
The appearance of conflict of interest is enough. That his students express discomfort and feelings of unsafe _in their own home_ was easily dismissed by this professor is additional evidence that he doesn't treat his job of dean to a residence seriously enough. "You should reason yourself so my volunteer role and job are not in conflict" is not good enough - he's putting all the effort on the weak and less powerful. And that's not right.
Ultimately the story he spins in that article is that Harvard "capitulated to a mob", but my spin is this: Harvard did the right thing by protecting the less powerful from the more powerful. And there is no disputing a tenured Harvard law professor, with tons of connections, a guaranteed for life salary, etc, is the more powerful person.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp
Engineers have a hard time disliking someone for emotional reasons though. Like it’s not enough that Erdogan is a bad guy, it has to be about numbers.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#139The takeaway for those in the US: To detect nascent authoritarianism, look at who in particular is getting persecuted in academia. Another good heuristic: Look at who's over-serious and who is best wielding ridicule.
Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals
#140Not saying that every pseudo-dictator is going to end up like pol pot, but it's good to see the warning flags.