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How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

nytimes.com

71–80 of 224 posts

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#71
It's disturbing this produced a sort of flame war.

In the not-so-distant-past, a dictator purging academics would be clearly and universally acknowledged as bad.

Somehow it's now twisted around to claim that critics of _supporters_ of a regime are actually the real "oppressors".

Interesting times.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#72
post #7

"People have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove God help us

Many experts are just preachers in different attire. Honestly, should we really listen to scientist who gets labeled experts based non replicable studies? The problem is that all of them gets the same doctors titles but only some of them are doing honest research, and our current society has no good way to deal with this. As a result laymen notice that significant parts of science is pure bullshit, no wonder there ar…

Also, should we listen to scientists who are speaking outside of their area of expertise? "I'm a medical doctor, so let me tell you about meteorology." People import authority from an area where they have it to use in areas where they don't.

Note well: This does not excuse purging intellectuals, in Turkey or anywhere else. Intellectuals aren't gods, but they aren't vermin, either.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#74
post #58
post #7

"People have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove God help us

I really dislike people bringing that quote up, because the full sentence was "People have had enough of experts (...) who are consistently getting it wrong". [1] It's still not necessarily true, but by taking just part of that quote is misrepresenting what he said. Just thought that'd be good to keep in mind next time you might consider digging it up. [1] https://youtu.be/GGgiGtJk7MA?t=71

"People have had enough of (experts, who are consistently getting it wrong)"

Or

"People have had enough of experts, (who are consistently getting it wrong)."

Regardless, his logic is completely wrong and unfounded but who cares anymore. Who are these experts? No idea. When are they right? Irrelevant. What constitutes being wrong? Doesn't matter.

They clearly decided on the nuclear option, i.e. Campaigning with an incredibly vacuous overly-simplistic divisive message that has broken the United Kingdom. Some of the more abrasive untruths would have made Goebbels proud: Particularly the idea that this was them against the "establishment" e.g. Their mates, or the £350 million affair - Not because of the figure but because of the tax income from doing trade with the EU.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#75
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We weren't really oppressed by our government. The March events, as they're know here, were mostly homegrown commies pushing out the Jewish wing of the party with decent people getting caught in the purge and following protests. But it was all happening with two hundred thousand Soviet soldiers stationed in the country. The communist government wouldn't have lasted a month without the Soviet support. The situation is…

Given that history, are there common opinions and feelings in Poland regarding Russias ongoing war with Ukraine?

I don't know anyone who would support Russia in that conflict but Ukraine itself isn't very popular with many due to unresolved Volhynia massacres[1]. Mostly though people just don't care about a low intensity war that feels far away (even if it isn't).

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia...

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#76
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources for this purge of US intelectuals?

A Harvard Law Professor was forced to step down due students feeling "Unsafe" over clients he was representing in court. There are many similar examples like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/opinion/harvard-ronald-su...

You're misunderstanding the story. He was made to step down from a particular post he held, and I'm not saying that's okay, but he's still a Harvard Law professor and there was never any prospect he wouldn't be.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#77

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

GDP is not a north star metric. GDP in the US is high and we have more suicides than ever. Many authoritarian (or especially populist) governments KNOW they will lower the GDP because by limiting low-wage labor immigration or focusing on nurturing a native culture or preserving the environment and not buying into a soulless consumerism/globalization they are creating a GDP cap. "growth for the sake of growth is the i…

I think we're in agreement here. I purposely didn't imply that GDP growth was a good indicator of smart social policies, just that GDP shrinkage (especially to that extent) was an inarguable indicator of bad social policies.

There may also be GDP growth in a country with bad social policies. I wouldn't expect there to be much GDP shrinkage in a country with smart social policies, though.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#78

Turkey's GDP peaked at $950 billion in 2013, just before Erdogan became president. By 2017, it had slid to $850 billion, and after the intellectual purges, slid to just $766 billion in 2018. [1] People may argue from ideology for or against politics like these, but I can think of no clearer indication of these policies' failure than the impoverishing of a country. [1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp

[deleted]

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#79
post #60

I don't really know what is so special about the school which they decided to base the entire article on. This is just a small sample of the ongoing intellectual purge in Turkey. Every university rector is appointed by Erdogan, most professors in STEM, if they haven't fled, avoid any kind of political stance to continue teaching with the hopes of raising intellectuals who will help save the country. This is the unive…

It's interesting to note that the NYT publishes this damning piece mere weeks after Erdogan green-lighted Turkey's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems despite the U.S threatening to kick them out of the F-35 program if they did so. The story appears at a time when an important NATO ally is straying from the pack and leaning instead towards Russia's sphere of influence.

My prediction is that we will be seeing more and more mainstream-media pieces like this in the near future, with a healthy sprinkling of words such as "regime", "dictatorship" and “fascism”, and featuring characters like Demirtas as protagonists of the story. They will undoubtedly be portrayed as freedom-fighters leading the fight against oppression.

Manufacturing Consent was truly prophetic.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDP is not a north star metric. GDP in the US is high and we have more suicides than ever. Many authoritarian (or especially populist) governments KNOW they will lower the GDP because by limiting low-wage labor immigration or focusing on nurturing a native culture or preserving the environment and not buying into a soulless consumerism/globalization they are creating a GDP cap. "growth for the sake of growth is the i…

I'd like some kind of standard metric that adjusts gdp to spending power on food, housing etc, and weights based on standard deviation amongst the populace (lower being better). Unadjusted gdp seems like an entirely pointless metric when as you point out you can look at places like the USA where despite having high gdp there's still widespread poverty.

The metric you are looking for is Purchasing Power Parity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity
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