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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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41–50 of 221 posts

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#41

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

> There was also the unstated matter that the contractor favored by the state did not know how to do this technique.

I’m gonna bet this was the deciding factor.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#43

A family member in the DOT told me this as but one of many tales of woe. Several hundred miles of an interstate were going to be rehabbed. There was a proven technique to redo the joints between the concrete slabs, which were in good shape. A contractor was hired to do a small number of miles as a test, but they had a learning curve. The first few joints that they redid were not done well, but they rapidly improved a…

The further you are removed from "other people" with regards to "other people's money", the easier it is to waste/pocket/embezzle. Fixing that problem would go a long way.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#44
post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure. In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

That simply isn’t true at all. There are plenty of unused or underused highways and bridges in China that made a few red families lots of money.

It’s fascinating to me that some people think corruption in China is lower than the USA. Not even the Chinese would make such a claim.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#45
A hard-to-capture cost factor is keeping highly used services operational or replaced while doing work on it. A super-fancy new subway with lots of stations in Shenzhen where people weren't already taking trains and expecting to use stations for their daily commute will be much cheaper than disrupting a line service to open a new station in London or New York City. Replacement bus bridge services, network-wide service advisories, staff and enforcement training, are all costs that are not easy to quantify or justify because it doesn't directly manifest in the construction of the infrastructure.

Of course there are other factors that vary a lot across cultures:

* China's heavy-handed governmental decision-making leaves no room for inefficiencies via neighborhood antagonism towards the constructions or zoning;

* Car culture differences create different magnitudes of popular roadblocks to investment in non-automobile infrastructure, which can result in large expenditures on lobbying and campaigning;

* Significantly more arbitrary middlemen making their way into the process because of "let the market figure it out" does, in fact, create some process inefficiencies in supply chains and contract pipelines. Few countries are as aggressively market-based for things meant for public good as the US.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#46
post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure. In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

Don't kid yourself, there are people getting rich on those china projects.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#47
I don’t fully buy that we can’t work this out. The author gives examples of how it’s difficult to compare, but what those examples show is that yes, to compare properly you need to go very deep on some parts to find out why design decisions were made the way they were. This may be more time consuming and cost more but it’s doable.

One other thing we might try is to set aside a hundred billion dollars for a half dozen key “trial” or “learning” projects, and see if we can get some of the agencies from say Japan and France and Spain to execute those projects so we can learn how they do it differently. And they can show up all the things (regulations, interference, etc) that they encounter here that would be different to back home.

In the scheme of things it’s cheap, we still get infrastructure out of it, and it’s one sure way to learn.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#48
May be this is just too much cynicism but isn't it possible the GAO just failed to do what it was supposed to do and is offering that paragraph as a poor way to explain away their failure?

The trend of it being more expensive in the US is a real, statistically determinable fact. That hints there are structural reasons for it. They should at least give a stab at it rather than throwing up their hands and claiming there's nothing they can do.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#49
post #47

I don’t fully buy that we can’t work this out. The author gives examples of how it’s difficult to compare, but what those examples show is that yes, to compare properly you need to go very deep on some parts to find out why design decisions were made the way they were. This may be more time consuming and cost more but it’s doable. One other thing we might try is to set aside a hundred billion dollars for a half dozen…

He's not saying it can't be done, he's saying it can't be done on the cheap.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#50

A hard-to-capture cost factor is keeping highly used services operational or replaced while doing work on it. A super-fancy new subway with lots of stations in Shenzhen where people weren't already taking trains and expecting to use stations for their daily commute will be much cheaper than disrupting a line service to open a new station in London or New York City. Replacement bus bridge services, network-wide servic…

> A hard-to-capture cost factor is keeping highly used services operational or replaced while doing work on it.

Anyone who does any kindof "building" (whether it be software engineers making schema changes, or a general contractor adding to an existing house vs building from scratch) knows this intimately, so really it shouldn't be any kind of surprise at all

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