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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#21

Post by bps4484 »

notadoc wrote: post #15

Really? Are we sure we can't figure this out? Who believes that? Private contractors seem to be very expensive. No-bid contracts are obviously not competitive. And when the tax payer is picking up the bill, is there really any incentive for a contractor to keep costs low? Who advocates for the taxpayer? And how much corruption, kick-backs, lobbying, political favoring, porking, and other questionable activity goes on…

But wouldn't all those same problems you outline be the case in other countries?

I think the question isn't "Why are infra costs so high?" which I think your list answers, but instead "Why are infra costs so high in the united states?"

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#22

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ameister14 wrote: post #14
chimeracoder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Corruption in New York is a whole different animal than any other state. New York has, hands down, the most corrupt state government in the country.[0] As just one example, the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, openly orchestrated an illegal[1] coup to ensure that Republicans maintained control of the state senate, despite losing control in the…

I think Illinois gives NY a run for their money. Remember Blagojevich trying to sell the senate seat?

Money is really good at masking systemic problems (like government run by idiots, corruption, etc) because you can just throw money at wherever the problem rears it's head.

I don't know if Chicago is more corrupt or they're just less able/willing to put up an expensive front of propriety. Everyone loves to cite the number of politicians that get prosecuted or go to jail for corruption. To me that says the corruption doesn't run very deep.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#23

Post by BurningFrog »

xt00 wrote: post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

In China the purpose of infrastructure projects is to get infrastructure.

In the US the purpose of infrastructure projects is to enrich everyone associated with the project.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#24

Post by tdb7893 »

ambicapter wrote: post #17

> The usual way you produce journalism or policy research on a technical question like this is that you hire someone with expertise in journalism or public policy to produce a report. That person calls up relevant experts and asks them to talk, for free, about their areas of expertise. This is one of the great perks of my job: I call up lawyers and other professionals who ordinarily charge hundreds of dollars an hour…

The experts often have already done that work already, often that's how they became an expert.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#25

Post by twunde »

chimeracoder wrote: post #10
ComputerGuru wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether it is cost effective to do so or not, each and every one of the beneficiaries from such corruption should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible under the law, no matter how expensive it gets, to set a precedent so others might think twice in the future.

> Regardless of whether it is cost effective to do so or not, each and every one of the beneficiaries from such corruption should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible under the law, no matter how expensive it gets, to set a precedent so others might think twice in the future. I think you underestimate the extent of corruption in New York state government. New Yorkers unfortunately can't do an…

1) I don't know whether NY is any more corrupt than other states, I'd imagine other states that are largely controlled by party machines have similar levels of corruption. If you look at historical political machines (Tammany Hall, Kansas City), it seems that there used to be more corruption.

2) While many districts are controlled by local party machines, they are not invincible. It's still possible to get on a democratic primary ballot without the support of Dem machine, you just need to get the required number of signatures by registered Dems and file the paperwork (funnily enough, in some areas the local Rep party will help with this. NY's rule allowing candidates to run on multiple parties helps with this).

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#26

Post by atotic »

"why is American infrastructure so bad?" has been a topic I am curious about. The above article does not answer the question.

I'd prefer not to care about American infrastructure costs. Unfortunately, I occasionally have to leave my house, and the consequences of bad infrastructure stare me in the face: people living in their cars, traffic jams.

The best attempt to actually answer the question I've seen has been "Pedestrian Observations" blog. Their take on the same GAO report is:

[New Report on Construction Costs Misses the Mark](https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/07/22/new-report-on-...)

"The GAO report is out now, and unfortunately it is a total miss, for essentially the same reason the RPA’s report was a miss: it did not go outside the American (and to some extent rest-of-Anglosphere) comfort zone"

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#27

Post by Spellman »

tdb7893 wrote: post #24
ambicapter wrote: post #17

> The usual way you produce journalism or policy research on a technical question like this is that you hire someone with expertise in journalism or public policy to produce a report. That person calls up relevant experts and asks them to talk, for free, about their areas of expertise. This is one of the great perks of my job: I call up lawyers and other professionals who ordinarily charge hundreds of dollars an hour…

The experts often have already done that work already, often that's how they became an expert.

Which then means why redo the work when you can call the expert and get things pre-digested for you.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#28

Post by yellowstuff »

ambicapter wrote: post #17

> The usual way you produce journalism or policy research on a technical question like this is that you hire someone with expertise in journalism or public policy to produce a report. That person calls up relevant experts and asks them to talk, for free, about their areas of expertise. This is one of the great perks of my job: I call up lawyers and other professionals who ordinarily charge hundreds of dollars an hour…

I think the basic idea of investigatory journalism is that the journalist is not necessarily an expert in the topic they write about, but is good at finding informed sources, getting overlapping information from all of them, and determining who can be trusted on which facts.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#29

Post by chimeracoder »

twunde wrote: post #25
chimeracoder wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless of whether it is cost effective to do so or not, each and every one of the beneficiaries from such corruption should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible under the law, no matter how expensive it gets, to set a precedent so others might think twice in the future. I think you underestimate the extent of corruption in New York state government. New Yorkers unfortunately can't do an…

1) I don't know whether NY is any more corrupt than other states, I'd imagine other states that are largely controlled by party machines have similar levels of corruption. If you look at historical political machines (Tammany Hall, Kansas City), it seems that there used to be more corruption. 2) While many districts are controlled by local party machines, they are not invincible. It's still possible to get on a democ…

> If you look at historical political machines (Tammany Hall, Kansas City), it seems that there used to be more corruption.

Tammany Hall still exists. My own local Democratic club, for example, literally compares itself to Tammany Hall.

> It's still possible to get on a democratic primary ballot without the support of Dem machine, you just need to get the required number of signatures by registered Dems and file the paperwork

The laws around which signatures are considered valid are absurdly stringent, to the point of disenfranchising actual registered Democrats, with the intention of making right-to-ballot petitions infeasible in most districts.

> NY's rule allowing candidates to run on multiple parties helps with this.

Fusion voting is a way for major parties to exert control over third parties, not a way for voters registered with a party to exert political pressure against the party establishment.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#30

Post by topkai22 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #20
xt00 wrote: post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

China doesn't have to worry about liability and cover-your-ass costs, which are huge.

Also presumably land acquisition/NIMBYism is easier to deal with.
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