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Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

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Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#11

Post by bluedino »

chimeracoder wrote: post #2

Kind of weird to use a picture of the East Side Access project in New York as the lede. New York is a whole different case from the rest of the country. We do know why infrastructure in New York is so absurdly expensive. Outright theft and fraud is a big culprit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as par…

>> “All we knew is they were each being paid about $1,000 every day.”

Assuming a 5-day work week, $270,000 a year is a crazy amount, isn’t it?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#12

Post by xt00 »

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of rail and lots of stations? I’ve used the Shenzhen metro and it’s pretty nice. Also used the Shanghai metro as well.

Often in the US, stations are cited as a big cost.

Would be interesting to get a pie chart for costs between US and China like land acquisition costs, labor, raw materials, management, etc.

A bit disappointing that the report essentially ended in a “it depends” type of non-informative report.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#13

Post by User23 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #9
the_duke wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Infrastructure projects are always a prime danger for corruption. (large sums of money with customers that aren't under financial pressures like a company, actual or effective cost-plus contracts, chance for politicians to get "lobbied" and make lasting connections, ...) I think it's the same everywhere in the world, with varying degrees of dubiousness.

> Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Corruption in New York is a whole different animal than any other state. New York has, hands down, the most corrupt state government in the country.[0] As just one example, the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, openly orchestrated an illegal[1] coup to ensure that Republicans maintained control of the state senate, despite losing control in the…

Can confirm. New York crookedness is so advanced I can’t help having a grudging admiration. It’s been like that longer than any of us have been alive too.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#14

Post by ameister14 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #9
the_duke wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Infrastructure projects are always a prime danger for corruption. (large sums of money with customers that aren't under financial pressures like a company, actual or effective cost-plus contracts, chance for politicians to get "lobbied" and make lasting connections, ...) I think it's the same everywhere in the world, with varying degrees of dubiousness.

> Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Corruption in New York is a whole different animal than any other state. New York has, hands down, the most corrupt state government in the country.[0] As just one example, the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, openly orchestrated an illegal[1] coup to ensure that Republicans maintained control of the state senate, despite losing control in the…

I think Illinois gives NY a run for their money. Remember Blagojevich trying to sell the senate seat?

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#15

Post by notadoc »

Really? Are we sure we can't figure this out? Who believes that?

Private contractors seem to be very expensive. No-bid contracts are obviously not competitive. And when the tax payer is picking up the bill, is there really any incentive for a contractor to keep costs low? Who advocates for the taxpayer?

And how much corruption, kick-backs, lobbying, political favoring, porking, and other questionable activity goes on behind the scenes that increase costs?

This isn't rocket science, it's mostly about accounting and accountability.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#16

Post by elithrar »

xt00 wrote: post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

> Would be interesting to get a pie chart for costs between US and China like land acquisition costs, labor, raw materials, management, etc.

Safety, incidents/deaths, etc...

(Although I believe that the costs for large infra projects are ballooning for a lot of reasons, comparison to China continues to ignore the human cost and history there)

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#17

Post by ambicapter »

> The usual way you produce journalism or policy research on a technical question like this is that you hire someone with expertise in journalism or public policy to produce a report. That person calls up relevant experts and asks them to talk, for free, about their areas of expertise. This is one of the great perks of my job: I call up lawyers and other professionals who ordinarily charge hundreds of dollars an hour for their services, and they talk to me for free, whether because they find it interesting, because they have a message they want to get out in the world, or simply because they like seeing their names quoted in print.

This is probably uncouth for Hacker News, but let me just say: Aaaahahahahahahahahha. Is there really an expectation of accuracy if your method is calling up an expert and asking him to pontificate for a little bit? Whatever happened to accounting? Shouldn't the way you go about this is run the numbers, find the differences in isolated segments AND THEN ask the expert why such a difference exists?

I think it a large discredit to this journalist and the organization he/she works for if they think this is how they're going to spread important, useful information to the masses.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#18

Post by chimeracoder »

ameister14 wrote: post #14
chimeracoder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would that be different from everywhere else though? Corruption in New York is a whole different animal than any other state. New York has, hands down, the most corrupt state government in the country.[0] As just one example, the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, openly orchestrated an illegal[1] coup to ensure that Republicans maintained control of the state senate, despite losing control in the…

I think Illinois gives NY a run for their money. Remember Blagojevich trying to sell the senate seat?

> I think Illinois gives NY a run for their money. Remember Blagojevich trying to sell the senate seat?

Blagojevich is an amateur. He got caught. The ones who are the best at corruption are the ones who can keep it up for years - decades - successfully.

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#19

Post by geggam »

reallydude wrote: post #7
chimeracoder wrote: post #2

Kind of weird to use a picture of the East Side Access project in New York as the lede. New York is a whole different case from the rest of the country. We do know why infrastructure in New York is so absurdly expensive. Outright theft and fraud is a big culprit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > The budget showed that 900 workers were being paid to dig caverns for the platforms as par…

The California High Speed Rail was also corruption. It's all over everywhere, because nobody is accountable for it, except the people over-charging, while simultaneously pointing out that they are taking all the liability when things go wrong (and someone actually tries to prosecute).

Given the spread of corruption and looking for the commonality one cant help but conclude govt overall is creating corruption.

eg power corrupts

Re: Why We Can’t Figure Out Why Infrastructure Is So Expensive

#20

Post by lotsofpulp »

xt00 wrote: post #12

A couple of facts that should at least provide a baseline for costs (like the best case scenario): Shenzhen metro: 198 stations, about 180 miles of track (soon to be more like 250 miles), majority of it built in past 10-12 years. All I can find so far on cost is the phase iii cost which says it will cost about 20 billion. Phase I was quite small. So maybe they have spent about 30 billion to get almost 200 miles of ra…

China doesn't have to worry about liability and cover-your-ass costs, which are huge.
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