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Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

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Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#601
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm pointing out that the conceptual breakthroughs that preceded such an engineering sprint happened in the open literature. Wells was writing sci-fi about atomic weapons in 1914. He based it off of a pop-science book written in 1909. We don't have any such understanding, or even a definition, of 'AGI'.

Wells’ atomic bombs sci-fi was of the type «there is energy in the atom, and maybe someone will use this in bombs someday». Nowhere close to the physical reality of a weapon, more in the realm of philosophy that strong AI currently is. We have an existence proof of intelligence already, after all. The idea is not based on pure fantasy, even though the practicalities are unknown. Leo Szilard had more plausible philoso…

The issue with strong AI is not that "practicalities are unknown", any more than the issue with Leonardo da Vinci's daydreams of flying machines were that "practicalities are unknown".

He didn't have internal combustion engines, but that's a practicality, other mechanical power sources already existed (Alexander the Great had torsion siege engines). They would never be sufficient for flight, of course, but the principle was understood.

But he could never have even begun to build airfoils, because he didn't have even an inkling of proto-aerodynamics. He saw that birds exist, so he drew a machine with wings that flapped. Look at the wings he drew: https://www.leonardodavinci.net/flyingmachine.jsp

That's an imitation of birds with no understanding behind it. That's the state of strong AI today: we see that humans exist, so we create imitations of human brains, with no understanding behind them.

That lead to machine learning, and after 40 years of research we figured out that if you feed it terabytes of training data, it can actually be "unreasonably effective", which is impressive! How many pictures of giraffes did you have to see before you could instantly recognize them, though? One, probably? Human cognition is clearly qualitatively different.

The danger of machine learning is not that it could lead to strong AI. It's that it is already leading to pervasive surveillance and misinformation. (idlewords is pretty critical of OpenAI, but I actually credit OpenAI with taking this quite seriously, unlike MIRI.)

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read your own Wikipedia link, you'd see that Rutherford's gold foil experiments were started in 1908, his nuclear model of the atom was proposed in 1911—we even split the atom in 1932! (1938 is when we discovered that splitting heavier atoms could release energy rather than consume it.) We haven't even had the AGI equivalent of the Rutherford model of the atom yet: what's the definition of consciousness? What…

You might not need a definition of consciousness. Right now it looks like you can get quite far with „fill in the blanks“ type losses (gpt-2 and Bert) in the case of Language understanding and Self-Play in the case of Games.

We are indeed getting impressively far. Four decades after being invented, machine learning went from useless to useful to enormous societal ramifications terrifyingly quickly.

However, we are not getting impressively close to AGI. That's why we need to stop the AGI alarmism and get our act together on the enormous societal ramifications that machine learning is already having.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#603
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy shit, that is so impressive. They didn't even have Newton's law of gravity yet. Once we had Newton's law of gravity though, we knew the distance, radius, mass, and even surface gravity of the moon. Would you say it's fair to say that by then we knew in principle we could go there and walk there? (P.S. I assume you know this but the way you wrote your comment makes it seem like our measurements of lunar distance…

> The wide variation from 55x to 64x Earth's radius is because it changes over the course of the moon's orbit, due to the Sun and Jupiter's gravity I think you’re not only wrong but even Kepler and Newton already knew that better than you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_orbit “Strictly speaking, both bodies revolve around the same focus of the ellipse, the one closer to the more massive body, but when one b…

No you're right, the Sun and Jupiter are a secondary effect to the elliptical orbit, I skimmed the Wikipedia page too quickly:

> due to its elliptical orbit with varying eccentricity, the instantaneous distance varies with monthly periodicity. Furthermore, the distance is perturbed by the gravitational effects of various astronomical bodies – most significantly the Sun and less so Jupiter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance_(astronomy)#Per...

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#604
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wide variation from 55x to 64x Earth's radius is because it changes over the course of the moon's orbit, due to the Sun and Jupiter's gravity I think you’re not only wrong but even Kepler and Newton already knew that better than you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_orbit “Strictly speaking, both bodies revolve around the same focus of the ellipse, the one closer to the more massive body, but when one b…

No you're right, the Sun and Jupiter are a secondary effect to the elliptical orbit, I skimmed the Wikipedia page too quickly: > due to its elliptical orbit with varying eccentricity, the instantaneous distance varies with monthly periodicity. Furthermore, the distance is perturbed by the gravitational effects of various astronomical bodies – most significantly the Sun and less so Jupiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Thanks! Now back to your other question:

> Once we had Newton's law of gravity though, we knew the distance, radius, mass, and even surface gravity of the moon.

I think it was more complicated than what you assume there. Newton published his Principia 1687 but before 1798 we didn't know the gravitational constant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment

However...

> Would you say it's fair to say that by then we knew in principle we could go there and walk there?

If you mean "we 'could' go if we had something what we were sure we haven't had" then there is indeed a written "fiction" story published even before Newton published his Principia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comical_History_of_the_States_...

It's the discovery of the telescope that allowed people to understand that there are another "worlds" and that one would be able to "walk" there.

Newton's impact was to demonstrate that there is no any "mover" (which many before identified as a deity) that provides the motion of the planets but that their motions simply follow from their properties and the "laws." Before, most expected Aristotle to be relevant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

"In Metaphysics 12.8, Aristotle opts for both the uniqueness and the plurality of the unmoved celestial movers. Each celestial sphere possesses the unmoved mover of its own—presumably as the object of its striving, see Metaphysics 12.6—whereas the mover of the outermost celestial sphere, which carries with its diurnal rotation the fixed stars, being the first of the series of unmoved movers also guarantees the unity and uniqueness of the universe."

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#605
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "we are not even close to achieving insect-level intelligence" I think I meant that what we have now is not close in intelligence (whatever that means) to insects. Some insects are pretty stupid! Fleas and ticks have a good and highly adapted repertoire of behaviors, but for the most part, as far as we know, most individual behaviors are fairly simple. I mostly regret having chosen bikes rather than electric scoot…

I think my point was lost because it's my pre-Primetime Emmy material.

I think your point was lost because there's some scaling problems in the mental models used to formulate it.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a non-zero chance that we are a few breakthroughs away from creating a technology that far surpasses the nuclear bomb in terms of destructive potential. No, there is exactly zero chance that anyone is "a few breakthroughs away" from AGI.

I'm compiling a list of reasons people doubt AGI risk, could you clarify why you think AGI is certainly far term?

I feel like I could write an essay about this.

AGI represents the creation of a mind .... It's something that has three chief characteristics: it understands the world around it, it understands what effects its actions will have on the world around it, and it takes actions.

None of those three things are even close to achievable in the present day.

No software understands the physical world. The knowledge gap here is IMMENSE. Software does not see what we see: it can be trained to recognize objects, but its understanding is shallow. Rotate those objects and it becomes confused. It doesn't understand what texture or color really are, what shapes really are, what darkness and light really are. Software can see the numerical values of pixels and observe patterns in them but it doesn't actually have any knowledge of what those patterns mean. And that's just a few points on the subject of vision, let alone all the other senses, all the world's complex perceivable properties. Software doesn't even know that there IS a world, because software doesn't KNOW anything! You can set some data into a data structure and run an algorithm on it, but there's no real similarity there to even a baby's ability to know that things fall when you drop them, that they fall in straight lines, that you can't pass through solid objects, that things don't move on their own, etc etc.

Even if, a century from now, some software did miraculously approach such an understanding, it still would not know how it was able to alter the world. It might know that it was able to move objects, or apply force to then, but could it see the downstream effects? Could it predict that adding tomatoes to a chocolate cake made no sense and rendered the cake inedible? Could it know that a television dropped out the window of an eight story building was dangerous to people on the sidewalk below? Could it know that folding a paper bag in half is not destructive, but folding a painting in half IS? Understanding what can result from different actions and why some are effective and others are not, is another vast chasm of a knowledge gap.

Lastly, and by FAR most importantly, the most essential thing.....software does not want. Every single thing we do as living creatures is because our consciousness drives us to want things: I want to type these words at this moment because I enjoy talking about this subject. I will leave soon because I want food and hunger is painful. Etc. If something does not feel pleasure or pain or any true sensation, it cannot want. And we have absolutely no idea how such a thing works, let alone how to create it, because we have next to no idea how our own minds work. Any software that felt nothing, would want nothing-- and so it would sit, inert, motionless...never bored, never curious, never tired, just like an instance of Excel or Chrome. Just a thing, not alive. No such entity could genuinely be described as AGI. We are likely centuries from being able to recreate our consciousness, our feelings and desires....how could someone ever be so naive as to believe it was right around the corner?

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#607
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in categorizing for the sake of categorizing, I'm interested in how AI researchers and those otherwise involved can get a measure of where they're at and where they can expect to be. If AI researchers were growing neurons in vats and those neurons were displaying abilities on par with chimpanzees I'd want those researchers to be able to say ‘hold up, we might be getting close to par-human intellige…

>no results to many incredible results What exactly is incredible (relatively) about the current state of things? I don't know how up-to-date you are on research, but how can you be claiming that we had no results previously? This is the kind of ignorance of previous work that we should be avoiding. We had the same kind of results previously, only with lower numbers. I keep trying to explain that increasing the numbe…

> What exactly is incredible (relatively) about the current state of things?

Compared to 1999?

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSLJriaOumA

Hear https://audio-samples.github.io/#section-4

Read https://grover.allenai.org/

These are not just ‘increasing numbers’. These are fucking witchcraft, and if we didn't live in a world with 5 inch blocks of magical silicon that talk to us and giant tubes of aluminium that fly in the sky the average person would still have the sense to recognize it.

> It is the way to save this field from [...]

For us to have a productive conversation here you need to either respond to my criticisms of this line of argument or accept that it's wrong. Being disingenuous because you like what the argument would encourage if it were true doesn't help when your argument isn't true.

> Is rote multiplication a task that we're interested in achieving with AI?

It's a measure for which improvement would have meaningful positive impact on our ability to reason, so it's a measure we should wish to improve all else equal. Yes, it's marginal, yes, it's silly, that's the point: failure in one corner does not equate to failure in them all.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm compiling a list of reasons people doubt AGI risk, could you clarify why you think AGI is certainly far term?

I feel like I could write an essay about this. AGI represents the creation of a mind .... It's something that has three chief characteristics: it understands the world around it, it understands what effects its actions will have on the world around it, and it takes actions. None of those three things are even close to achievable in the present day. No software understands the physical world. The knowledge gap here is…

Thanks.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "guess" is they're offering $1B worth of Azure services. Which costs MSFT probably much less than $1B. My "guess" is that it means MSFT has access to sell products based off the research OpenAI does to MSFT's customers. Having early access to advanced research means MSFT could easily make this money back by selling better AI tools to their customers. Also a great time to point out that while "Microsoft is not a ch…

> by selling better AI tools to their customers Microsoft really needs this. ML.NET is quite anemic compared to the industry-standard AI toolkits: TensorFlow, theano, scikit-learn, Torch, Keras, etc. https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/machinelearning-ai/ml-dotn...

Microsoft has Windows.AI tho.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#610
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Sentiment analysis' of pre-canned pre-labelled datasets is a comparatively trivial classification task. Actual sentiment analysis as in 'take the twitter firehose and figure out sentiment about arbitrary topic X' is only slightly less out of reach than AGI itself. Actual sentiment analysis is a completely different kind of ML problem than supervised classification 'sentiment analysis' that's popular today but mostly…

Not-actual sentiment analysis is already useful (to some) and used in real world applications (though I'm not a fan of those applications), unless perhaps you're referring to the "actual real world" that lives somewhere beyond the horizon as well.

The problem with 'sentiment analysis' of today is it requires a human labelled training dataset that is specific to a particular domain and time period. These are rather costly to make and have about a 12 month half-life in terms of accuracy because language surrounding any particular domain is always mutating - something 'sentiment analysis' models can't hope to handle because their ability to generalise is naught. I've worked with companies spending on the order of millions per year on producing training data for automated sentiment analysis models not unlike the ones in the parent post.

To get useful value out of automated sentiment analysis, that's the cost to build and maintain domain specific models. Pre-canned sentiment analysis models like the parent post linked are more often than not worthless for general purpose use. I won't say there are 0 scenarios where those models are useful, but the number is not high.

Claiming that sentiment analysis is 90something percent accurate, or even close to being solved, is extremely misleading.

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