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Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

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Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#351

Post by thedevilslawyer »

kragen wrote: post #307
chrissnell wrote: post #125

It's a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top p…

It's not a big priority, but it's by far the biggest difference in priorities by gender in the data that they're showing.

Well if 0.1% men cared about something, and 1% women cared about it -- that's 10x difference in that priority.

But still a blip overall, that can be ignored.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#352

Post by sa46 »

kragen wrote: post #307
chrissnell wrote: post #125

It's a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top p…

It's not a big priority, but it's by far the biggest difference in priorities by gender in the data that they're showing.

It's the biggest by relative percentage difference but in absolute terms it's second to salary. I'm not sure it's a useful measure. It exaggerates the effect when one number is small as seen with autonomy. I agree with GP, it looks peculiar.

Inclusive workplace has an absolute difference of 10% but has a relative difference of 171%.

Salary has an absolute difference of 15% but has a relative difference of 43%.

Presumably the relative difference for flat organization (0% and 2%) would be larger.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#353

Post by burfog »

chrissnell wrote: post #125

It's a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top p…

"inclusiveness" is a euphemism.

I take it to mean a place where an accidental offense (in the eye of the beholder) will get people fired, where business success isn't the priority, where people will constantly be reminded that the company values some employees less just because of some inborn traits, and where employees will be suspecting each other of having been given unfair advantage instead of earning their positions by merit. That gets toxic and stressful for everybody, including those who are being given unfair advantages. Paranoia and resentment do not make a good work environment.

To say inclusiveness is not a priority for me is an understatement. It's a red flag.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#354

Post by itronitron »

The article title conflicts with the conclusion of their analysis.

The best engineers notably de-emphasize ambition. is one of their conclusions based on their 'best' category indicating a higher priority on work/life balance than the 'great' and 'all' categories.

They say their data shows that all engineers care about growth, so the title would be more accurate written as 'Want to hire programmers? Offer growth'.

It would be nice if they included information on the source data, in order to go through their system it is my understanding that candidates need to be willing to work where they have clients, and that is going to bias their sample considerably.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#355

Post by cydanil »

hinkley wrote: post #116
cydanil wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, I read the article, and I really identify with what you also say: I'm now in a position where I'm pretty good at my job, and my employer is keen to give me a permanent position. And yet, whilst it's fun to be able to answer questions on the spot, regarding my area of expertise, I'm looking forward to learning more. Now, I learnt a lot on this job, and it's very challenging on a daily basis, but it's becoming…

Is your manager willing to talk about knowledge transfer of some of your duties to other people? That's a double win, because they get some growth, and you get free time to pursue other interests. And if there is nothing, then at least you feel less guilty about leaving. Your boss has revealed they have no opinions on your growth options. Do you have any ideas of your own? Offer them up.

That's a fair suggestion, thanks! Retrospectively, it might well be that I haven't been so vocal, so they might think it's all fine.

I'll think about what you said, make a list and bring it to the table next time.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#356

Post by rubber_duck »

xchaotic wrote: post #341
rubber_duck wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing I found out about this recently - my country has a tax model where very small businesses (defined by revenue So this forced me to settle for a number at which I'm happy with my income and I can have a clear goal for that year - once that is achieved other things come in to play. This seems basic and maybe it's just me but I never really had an idea of what I wanted to make, what is "enough" - I would just…

Even with paying the accountant and even if the higher bracket was 90% you’d still be making more by earning more. It’s hard to agree with your line of thinking but I have seen this often that people are willing to sacrifice quite a lot of money for “security” and “peace of mind”. In practice you’d have more peace of mind with more money in the bank.

>Even with paying the accountant and even if the higher bracket was 90% you’d still be making more by earning more.

Maybe I should describe it better - it is a special tax model - you pay a flat fee if you make less than X and that flat fee turns out to be ~5%. When you cross this threshold you no longer qualify for this model at all - you have to convert to standard taxation - I would need to increase my revenue by 20% just to break even and the extra hassle of doing that would mean that I need to increase it by 30% (at least) to be wroth it.

So in my situation it just turned out to be a good limit where if I negotiate 10% more I just convert that money = free time for other stuff. I don't plan to stay below this limit forever (in fact next year I plan to go over) but the concept of having a target income goal and then letting the rest of your time go to personal life is really good for work life balance IMO.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#358

Post by repomies691 »

chrissnell wrote: post #125

It's a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top p…

> people mostly want money and the potential to make more money in the future.

Adding to that, without too much risk or responsibilities.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#359

Post by repomies691 »

Iv wrote: post #327
puranjay wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when someone pays you more, they respect you more I can't stress this enough. The more I charged as a consultant, the more my clients would shut up and heed my advice.

My first boss started to respect me after we had a shouting negotiation with him over my work contract. The employer-employee relationship is weird and toxic as hell. Work long hours? Develop additional tool during your free time? Help clients more than your job requires? You are a sucker. Manage to shout enough to get a raise? Now you are a champion.

> The employer-employee relationship is weird and toxic as hell.

Doesn't need to be in my experience, both the employee and employer can respect each other even when they don't get along well on personal level. However it is actually quite interesting that it is a relationship that can be weird and toxic, while still providing (economical) value for both parties.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#360

Post by orcdork »

burfog wrote: post #353
chrissnell wrote: post #125

It's a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top p…

"inclusiveness" is a euphemism. I take it to mean a place where an accidental offense (in the eye of the beholder) will get people fired, where business success isn't the priority, where people will constantly be reminded that the company values some employees less just because of some inborn traits, and where employees will be suspecting each other of having been given unfair advantage instead of earning their posit…

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