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Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

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Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#231

Post by davidw »

enraged_camel wrote: post #221
davidw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.

>> Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life. Okay, it is time for some harsh love. You won't like it, and I'll get downvotes, but whatever. It needs to be said. My parents are both doctors, and they are in their 60s now. And you know what? They still work their asses off, on many evenings and weekends, trying…

Do hospitals expect doctors to work on some patients for free over the weekend to see if they're worth hiring?

I'm guessing no.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#232

Post by my_usernam3 »

adrianpike wrote: post #57
farisjarrah wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some cognitive dissonance that I can't seem to get over while reading your comment. While your statement is technically true, I just don't see it being true in the real world. Any time I have gotten a job that has paid better, it also came with more challenges and more difficulty and invariably more of a time investment(even if that means studying outside of work). Maybe I am just taking the wrong jobs...

It's possible the OP is thinking from a consulting or contract perspective, because my experience is in line with yours - as my salary grows, so does my sphere of influence, but also my scope of responsibility, and that usually has meant more time investment. The thing that's interesting though, is on the consulting side, as my rates and overall project cost have increased, the time investment to close a sale has als…

> there's a small handful of people who've managed to carve out a niche where they can work low hours and make a high hourly rate, but they're few and far between

They seem to be the loud minority on here though. I guess if you get a sweet gig like that, you will find lots of time to post on HN. I know I'd brag about it too if I was in that situation.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#234

Post by lobotryas »

git-pull wrote: post #183

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they sho…

Except the “have them show off personal projects” route can be discriminatory. At least by giving people standard questions/puzzles your team (hopefully) determined as being relevant you are giving everyone the same chance at success.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#235

Post by shados »

git-pull wrote: post #183

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they sho…

My own experience as well as discussing with various leads at other local businesses tell me about 50% of candidate will hard pass take home projects.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#236

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

fernandopj wrote: post #206
Benjammer wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did she take a job as a tester if she was a CS grad with developer aspirations?

Why not? I do contract work for a big, public company, they have dozens of QA testers and every path is available for them (becoming a dev, analyst, manager, ... I've seen all). It's not even just an entry job for CS grads, many become senior testers as well and don't want to move to a dev position.

> Why not?

Because if you are a CS grad with aspirations to be a developer, taking a QA job is about the worst thing you can do. Even if you work at a company where "every path is available" (which is not particularly common), much better idea to get an actual developer job where you'll be working on coding skills.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#237

Post by devNC »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #212
git-pull wrote: post #183

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they sho…

> They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. I would much rather a coding quiz than be asked to do something in my own time. It is already enough of an imposition on my time to go to the actual interview, without there being homework too. Being expected to have already done side projects is even worse; it effectively punishes me for spending too much of my atten…

I rather spend 4 hours doing a project where I can demonstrate my value (architecture, clean code, design patterns, etc) than spending the same 4 hours solving questions on a whiteboard.

Hell, most of the value I bring as a senior is well outside the realm of coding.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#238

Post by shados »

enraged_camel wrote: post #221
davidw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.

>> Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life. Okay, it is time for some harsh love. You won't like it, and I'll get downvotes, but whatever. It needs to be said. My parents are both doctors, and they are in their 60s now. And you know what? They still work their asses off, on many evenings and weekends, trying…

> I detest this sense of entitlement that programmers have

I don't agree with all of your post (but do some of it). However at the pace companies are expanding their hiring net, the supply and demand ratios are going to flip sooner or later. The current seller's market isn't going to last and a lot of folks will have a serious reality check.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#239

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

shados wrote: post #235
git-pull wrote: post #183

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they sho…

My own experience as well as discussing with various leads at other local businesses tell me about 50% of candidate will hard pass take home projects.

Well, it just depends on whether those 50% that take a hard pass are more or less likely to be quality candidates in the first place.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#240

Post by IggleSniggle »

umvi wrote: post #14

Am I the only one here that likes growth because I like learning? I try and grow all the time in non-professional areas of my life even though there is no direct monetary compensation for doing so (such as learning new languages, instruments, etc.)

You are not alone. In fact, the opportunity to learn new things continuously and at a forced rapid pace is the reason I left academia to be a software developer.
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