Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth • Hacker News Board

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#191

Post by pawelduda » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

And here I am, 1 day after a presentation in front of the entire company, about pretty much the same topic.

Had I known about this article earlier, the execution would have been so much different (the presentation was terribad but whatever, I had good intentions). And the response would have been much better too (it's still very good, but I don't know whether that's good enough to push other people forward).

Regardless, thank you for posting this. The article and most of the comments in here echo my thoughts.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#192

Post by ticmasta » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

So in a candidate response-based survey 54% picked the more palatable "Growth Opportunities" item but 42% also selected the far less attractive motivator of "More money".

Accounting for the "perceived gallantry" of these motivators I'd call that a statistical wash, but the article title "Want to hire the best programmers? Pay them the highest salaries." doesn't support the "best engineers / best companies" narrative very well.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#193

Post by knd775 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #188

git-pull wrote: post #183

Don't give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability. It's unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole "senior" programmers into scenarios / pop quizzes. Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Be a serious employer: Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they sho…

None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.

As long as it's not a requirement or expected, I think it's fine. If someone has side projects they're proud of, I think it would be helpful to both parties for them to be brought up.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#194

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

antoinevg wrote: post #32

Fuck that, I've been doing this for 25 years and what I want in order of importance is: 1) Pay me 2) Autonomy

It would be interesting if they performed the same survey, but using real values instead of a subjective, relative scale.

For example, instead of asking: how important salary is, ask how much money they'd like to make; instead of opportunity for professional advancement, ask what role they'd like to eventually have; instead work/life balance, ask about number of vacation days and % work from home, etc.

I'm willing to bet you'll see very different outcomes because senior-level people for whom "salary is not important" probably want like $200k/yr while mid-level people who say it is important might only want $90k.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#195

Post by davidw » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

knd775 wrote: post #193

davidw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these things are perfect - I agree with you about quizzes and the like. > Let them show off recent personal projects. They'll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they're passionate about. Nope. Not spending my weekend fooling around to impress some potential employer. I'm going to spend it with my kids, riding my bike, and enjoying life.

As long as it's not a requirement or expected, I think it's fine. If someone has side projects they're proud of, I think it would be helpful to both parties for them to be brought up.

Oh, sure; side projects that people have worked on for fun over the years are a good thing to have and should be a potential avenue to show off one's abilities.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#196

Post by astrofinch » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

qntty wrote: post #68

typon wrote: post #18

Women value good code-bases more than men. Very interesting.

Perhaps women are less likely to be given the freedom to create the codebase (or part of it) and more likely to be involved in maintaining and extending it, and/or more likely to identify with such a role.

Another possible takeaway is if you want a clean codebase, you should hire a woman to write it, since women apparently care about clean code more.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#197

Post by dymk » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

Interesting that Salary is the second most important. I think there might be an explanation for this.

I've always interpreted "Personal Growth" as basically meaning "I'll have a higher salary in the future". So perhaps "Salary" is still the main motivator.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#198

Post by logifail » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

sq_ wrote: post #159

natefox wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I give my boss/coworkers my wife's phone number when I go on vacation. I tell them you have to talk to her to get to me. I then put my phone in airplane mode 95% of the time and use it as a camera. I'll occasionally undo airplane mode to upload photos or check the internets for something, but vacation for me is usually unplugging as well. I've yet to be called with this strategy.

That's honestly an amazing strategy. Adds a pretty big extra layer of thought about whether the decision to call you would be worth it.

> Adds a pretty big extra layer of thought [..]

I don't think the average cares about it nearly as much as one might think they would:

Boss: "we need to reach $person urgently, get them on the line for me..."

Assistant: "Sir, yes, sir"*

* or local equivalent

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#199

Post by c-smile » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

Management is an art of creating motivations to your subordinates. An art, sic!

Each of us is different. Of course we can draw charts outlining average patients temperature in a hospital... with the same informational value.

I wish all of us to experience joy from what we are doing. Let it be in the number of happy members of your team, beauty of your code, amount of salary you bring to your family … It can really be anything. Just keep your mind out of Procrustean bed of common stereotypes.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#200

Post by bryanrasmussen » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

vmateixeira wrote: post #176

jonny_eh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shortage of ideas, especially within a company. If you want your ideas to win out, you should take advantage of what you do best… making things. If you combine your idea pitch with a working prototype (doesn't need to be polished), it's odds of getting adopted will be far more likely. If your idea isn't one that can be prototyped, e.g. "Ask Microsoft for a billion dollars", then you may as well just pitch…

Just out of curiosity, when would you think these prototypes should be best built? Surely not on my free time, right? If the company is not interested on listening to new ideas, and you're keen on participating in something you would like to help build, then perhaps this is not the right company for you.

I have a project right now that I am thinking of building a prototype for on my own time and pitching to my company, because the company will basically have to sell the idea to another business. Why would I do this? Because then I can say how much I want to be compensated for my idea getting the company new business.