Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth • Hacker News Board

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#41

Post by pyrale » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #3

hidden_arachnid wrote: post #2

Author of this article here. As long as this initial data-dive came out, there are still a bunch of things we’d like to look at. Does location (say, NYC vs Silicon Valley vs affect these preferences? Does which track (generalist, front-end, mobile) a candidate takes through our process? How does this link with how candidates actually behave when given an offer? Our data set has enough information that we can investig…

As a Houston developer, that chart of motivating factors describes exactly what I'm looking for. I won't work on an ancient Java codebase that has no tests or no deployment pipeline, because doing that is death. Gotta keep moving forward or find yourself sliding backwards. I would say your analysis is spot on and I could have written the same article myself. Companies should realize doing things that seem "fluffy" an…

I have worked at a place that would refund up to $5k if I provided reasonable bills for trainings, conferences, coaching, theatre courses, and that was part of the perks.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#42

Post by dillonmckay » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

antoinevg wrote: post #32

Fuck that, I've been doing this for 25 years and what I want in order of importance is: 1) Pay me 2) Autonomy

I am willing to forgo #2 if #1 is high enough.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#43

Post by pixelrevision » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

Anecdotal but "opportunity for professional growth" seems like the best answer to a recruiter trying to sell you. Flexible work arrangements on a high quality code base is what everyone I know wants to do....

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#44

Post by benburleson » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #3

hidden_arachnid wrote: post #2

Author of this article here. As long as this initial data-dive came out, there are still a bunch of things we’d like to look at. Does location (say, NYC vs Silicon Valley vs affect these preferences? Does which track (generalist, front-end, mobile) a candidate takes through our process? How does this link with how candidates actually behave when given an offer? Our data set has enough information that we can investig…

As a Houston developer, that chart of motivating factors describes exactly what I'm looking for. I won't work on an ancient Java codebase that has no tests or no deployment pipeline, because doing that is death. Gotta keep moving forward or find yourself sliding backwards. I would say your analysis is spot on and I could have written the same article myself. Companies should realize doing things that seem "fluffy" an…

Your point about interviewing is refreshing to hear. I'm a terrible interviewee, but I know I'm a kickass developer. It's rough, but honestly I don't know how companies should find great engineers that aren't good interviewees -- just networking?

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#45

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #26

elindbe2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like tricky wording used by businesses to pay people less. Tell people in your job description that you offer "opportunities for career growth" and they hear "opportunities to get rich". Then when they're actually working there you just change the meaning to some kind of title inflation or meaningless training or additional responsibilities for the same pay.

> even worse, additional responsibilities for the same pay FWIW, and I say this acutely aware that I'm of the "don't give them what you don't owe them" tribe, additional responsibilities for the same pay are how I got the broad skillset that got me to the point where I'm a principal developer with a hand in every part of our project--which is, in addition to no-complaints compensated, genuinely a lot of fun. I took o…

[deleted]

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#46

Post by iteriteratedone » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

I offer an alternative perspective. After a few years you become skilled to the point where you are not learning on the job. Also you start to dive into tech that is outside your job.

At this point the job is not there for growth. Its not needed for growth. Like a chef, you are there to make good dishes known by the patrons. Not change the menu every week.

Well seasoned engineers want stability and professionalism. They want consistent processes that cteate stable systems. Learning new tech for learnings sake is not growth. Its a headache.

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#47

Post by farisjarrah » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

elindbe2 wrote: post #8

I wonder how many people in the survey interpret "opportunities for professional growth" as "opportunities to get rich". To me that makes the survey data more understandable. People, myself included, basically want more money for less hours (AKA work/life balance).

There is some cognitive dissonance that I can't seem to get over while reading your comment. While your statement is technically true, I just don't see it being true in the real world. Any time I have gotten a job that has paid better, it also came with more challenges and more difficulty and invariably more of a time investment(even if that means studying outside of work). Maybe I am just taking the wrong jobs...

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#48

Post by brabel » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #18

Women value good code-bases more than men. Very interesting.

Of course they do... whose house do you expect to be tidier, an average woman's or an average man's?

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#49

Post by opportune » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

I have seen employers grossly misunderstand "professional growth" to mean paying for tons of random seminars telling you the basics of being a professional like taking care of your appearance, carrying yourself, setting goals, etc. I don't think they understood that growth == promotions and income advancement.

I would have much rather taken home an extra $5k, or get a promotion two months earlier, than waste time sitting through self help seminars

Re: Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

#50

Post by dpeck » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

trilila wrote: post #10

Don’t treat developers like bricklayers. Sack any product manager or manager that does it. This is the root of all evil, radical as it may sound. There needs to be a balance between engineering and product delivery, but too much emphasis on product delivery leads to tech debt, cutting too many corners and poor tech choices. Not to mention stress and little to no job satisfaction. Give devs some time to build somethin…

in my experience many developers want to be bricklayers (not to discount bricklaying, there's an art to it, but they're focused on the individual bricks, not the other aspects of the building). They get annoyed when they're asked to think about the bigger picture and just want to focus on the code, the architecture, and whatever is new and shiny. It is largely due to these sorts of developers that we've developed all the ritual around sprints/product owners/etc to put blinders on them because they cannot deal with deadline and thinking in terms of business value creation.

This sort of person is under-represented here on HN for obvious reasons but they represent the majority of people developing software. The opportunity to contribute more than just lines of code should be offered and encouraged, but don't be surprised at how few will be interested.