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No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

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Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#281
post #216

In my opinion CS degree gets bonus when hiring because it weeds out people that are not interested. With 160 people in same year as me starting it ended up with 90 people getting bachelors, and maybe 60 masters. Then out off all that graduated maybe 30 went into software dev, others went into testing and support roles, maybe even into other stuff not CS related. If you are starting career, how are you going to convin…

> There is no way to show people how much time you invested in your self study. It is not about what you know, it is about other people getting to know so they can hire you.

Your point still holds true in this industry when you get as much as 300+ candidates applying for 1 graduate job. As much as I hate it, unfortunately some companies would hire internal candidates than external ones even if they were highly qualified, because they are highly networked within the company.

Having just a CS degree in 2019 is not enough to market youself as a better candidate. It is meerly seen as a minimum expectation from larger companies.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. The added benefit of there being a handful of really good resources to learn. The manual if my C64 pretty much taught me all the basics in a very approachable manner (I was 7 when I started). Nowadays, there are so many resources (mostly low quality) that people waste too much time trying to decide or lesrning things wrong.

I had a similar experience with C64 and its User and Reference manuals at that age. I was thinking about that a couple of months back, and found that they're still out there as PDFs of the originals: https://www.commodore.ca/commodore-manuals/

Ive been wanting to do something similar with Python. Time has been the issue.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#283
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Coding" is as meaningless a term as "writing". Much in the same way you can leverage basic writing skills to achieve entrepreneurial success, you can do so with coding skills. A literary academic may still consider writing to be a substantial exercise, probably more so than the untaught.

That's because the academic knows not to produce low quality content. The untaught often does not. I'm still reeling from having to maintain spaghetti code that some untaughts have churned out in my career.

> They just make it all look so easy.

> spaghetti code that some untaughts have churned out

Now we see both sides of the coin.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#284
post #29

I'm an engineer. No CS degree. I coded for fun on various side projects from 2006-2012. I didn't consider myself very good. I worked at a couple startups from 2012-2013. During that time, I became very proficient in Coffeescript and a couple popular frontend frameworks. I was very productive in terms of pumping out lines of code (that somehow resulted in a working product). However, I didn't know how to write a for l…

But didn't you read the core docs for the language, for loops are one of the basic idioms.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#285

Since these articles seem to be putting a cash value on the word "success" (or at the very least an instagram buzz value), I would point that IMHO, most of this success comes from people skill. You can have a degree or not, even bad developpers can hop from one job to another, making more and more money in the process, given they're good enough to manipulate the recruiters/clients into hiring them. Making money does…

"encouraging kids to drop out of high school to study CS on their own is wrong. " What about encouraging people to learn CS on their own, who have no way, to go to the university? (lack of formal education, money, time ...) And for those people usually what matters are not academic high valued software, but to make a living. And many people dream about making a living with IT, so they want to read such success storie…

You see success stories of people becoming actors, musicians, or popular YouTubers but not once in a million years would I encourage a kid to pursue that path full time without them knowing what they're getting into. I feel like there are too many success stories in programming without enough stories of failure or hard work.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#286

There's clearly strong feelings in this thread. Whether or not a degree is necessary, I think we can say there's two groups: - People who went to university, going through significant effort for their degree, and want to defend that choice - People who _didnt_ go to school, perhaps suffering from a touch of imposter syndrome, who want to hide their insecurity I'm a 20yr old "self-taught" dev. I'm considering going ba…

> There's clearly strong feelings in this thread.

It's always like this when it comes up, which is fairly often here, and I think you're right to point this out. It's an emotionally loaded topic, which means it's a hard one to actually get useful data from.

I think there's a couple of things going on here:

The path someone takes to get where they are is a huge part of their identity. So when they look back on their own history, they want to feel that that path is a good, valuable one because it implies that they are valuable people. So everyone who doesn't have a degree has an incentive to feel it's not important. Likewise, everyone who has a degree wants to feel it is.

The thing is, they're both right. There are many many paths and almost all of them are worthwhile human experiences. Many of them even lead to being a good software engineer. (And of those that don't, they still often lead to being a valuable human in other, often more important ways.)

But the reason it's useful to write about this stuff is for people that are looking ahead and trying to choose a path. Those people want to know the odds of each path and how likely it is to work out for them. Unfortunately, a long list of anecdotes is really hard to synthesize into that. It's like trying to figure out where to eat dinner when every single restaurant review is five stars.

I don't have good data either, but if you're trying to pick your path, I would think about your personality and how that's likely to interact with your choice:

Not going to school gives you more freedom to explore your interests and choose a unique, idiosyncratic path. If you are driven and focused, you can get farther down a road than most others will because you have the freedom to focus on areas where you are passionate. If you want to stand out, it's easier to do so this way.

At the same time, if you aren't self-directed and passionate, you can end up meandering and going nowhere. No one will tell you what to do and it's easy to end up doing nothing, or just dabbling a little in a million things. All of the onus to create structure and discipline is on you.

School will give you a structured environment to learn in. It gives you a curriculum crafted by experts so you will be introduced to topics in a reasonable order and you'll be shown things you might not have realized are important. You'll also absorb much of the culture and tribal knowledge of the field. However, this is skewed towards academia, and if your goal is ultimately industry, this may not be pure win.

Personally, I think going to school is generally a good, safe bet. You'll learn a lot, have a good experience, and meet a lot of people. You'll take a bunch of non-CS classes that will round you out as a human. Even though I dropped out, I got a ton out of my limited college experience, mostly not related to programming.

Not getting a degree is a higher variance path. You may blaze a trail and end up somewhere exciting and unique. You could be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Or you could end up flipping burgers, or underpaid because you're at a company that values degrees.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#287
post #9

I'm 39 years into a coding career with no CS degree. But as a compulsive auto-didact (probably a common syndrome among HN readers) it hasn't been a barrier. Self-learning is a continual, daily requirement for coders. If you can continue your education as needed for this job you probably also have the skills and interest to learn from scratch. I studied the same books and did the same exercises as my brother the CS ma…

Can you elaborate on some of these books you are referring to? I'm a self taught developer in his first real, institutional engineering role and I am worried I'm in over my head sometimes and would love to read some "must haves".

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is funny that people constantly mention these supposed developers who have jobs but cant program. Where are these jobs? I have a recent cs degree, did resume coaching, and worked through a couple coding interview exercise books. Still having trouble finding work. Show me one of these mythical jobs poorly trained programmers get, I will blow them out of the water. In reality I think most of those jobs have been out…

Try large boring corporations, such as banks and insurance companies.

Or the government. All you need to do is:

a.) Be able to pass a drug test

b.) Not have any problematic debts or associations with problematic groups (e.g. Aryan Nation, ISIS)

c.) Have a certification or degree that is related to the very specific thing they are asking for.

It's entirely clearing a checklist when they're recruiting. They have no idea how to evaluate for actual competence.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#289
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're lucky. When I worked for the federal government(USDA/USFS), there was no way I was going to get access to non-windows servers for deploying my projects. When we brought up the idea of using AWS, they told is that it was impossible as they had no way to handle reoccurring monthly billing. (obviously, this is a lazy excuse). The only node project I managed to get deployed ran behind Apache on Windows Server 2003…

Ummmm.... Lots of government services run on AWS. https://aws.amazon.com/government-education/government/

Yeah - now. Not back when win2k3 was in use.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even government jobs are out of reach for you. I work as a federal employee without any college degree doing web development with React/Node/AWS.

How does one find govt jobs using modern tech stacks?

https://www.usds.gov/apply

https://18f.gsa.gov/join/

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