No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers • Hacker News Board

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#151

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

mattmar96 wrote: post #134

There's clearly strong feelings in this thread. Whether or not a degree is necessary, I think we can say there's two groups: - People who went to university, going through significant effort for their degree, and want to defend that choice - People who _didnt_ go to school, perhaps suffering from a touch of imposter syndrome, who want to hide their insecurity I'm a 20yr old "self-taught" dev. I'm considering going ba…

I went to school for CS after 10 years as a self-taught profession dev. The main value I derived from it was the experience. Specifically, learning how to meet new people. Being a shy person by nature, I forced myself to make two new friends in every class, and it worked really, really well and it's something that I probably could not replicate outside of a similar environment.

Additionally, I legitimately enjoyed the coursework and learning about high(ish)-level math, art, and engineering that I may otherwise not have. It also gave me free time to pursue fitness and personal projects.

I'm probably not a better programmer as a result. And I'm probably not wealthier either, as I failed to leverage my degree into a position in Big Tech, though as a middling developer, it does make it easier to find jobs. But I do think I'm a better, happier, healthier person, and I would do it again.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#152

Post by jhall1468 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

jtdev wrote: post #113

I’m a programmer who studied information technology (with a number of programming courses, but zero true CS coursework) first at community college and then at a budget brand state college. I’m now a senior developer/engineer and frequently work on projects alongside CS graduates from prestigious schools who seem incapable of completing even the most simple coding tasks - this is the case nearly 100% of the time in my…

Most people that graduate with CS degrees took a few actual programming classes. The majority of the rest is a the same well-rounded classwork you took (English, History, etc) and a lot of theory and mixed-theory/applications classes like AI, Operating Systems, Compilers etc.

The practical real-world applications of those classes aren't 1:1 with their first job. I'm a frontend engineer and took 0 classes that are even remotely relevant to my day to day work. That said, foundation adds value. I can speak a common language with other engineers, including those that are completely different than my specialty.

To suggest a persons degree is meaningless is just as nonsensical as saying being self-taught is meaningless. I've also worked with both prestigious graduates that can't program and self-taught brilliant programmers. However, they are exceptions to the rule. The only thing that doesn't indicate much is anecdata, which both of us have now provided.

As an aside, your attitude towards entry-level programmers is likely similar to the attitude of senior programmers when you were entry-level. "Simple" is relative. You were undoubtedly a considerably worse programmer when you graduated as well, assuming your current title was earned through merit. Perspective.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#153

Post by jerf » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

Nevermindmyview wrote: post #67

arethuza wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Haskell developer?

I'll bet a choklate bar that 100% of all developers who spent 6 year using Haskell knows what a for-loop is.

"for" is not that complicated, it's just mapM with its arguments pre-flipped: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.12.0.0/docs/Contro...

I don't know why you want to call that a "loop", but, sure, you do you, you crazy imperative programmers.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#154

Post by bdcravens » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

stellalo wrote: post #111

Are CS degrees supposed to teach how to code?

You write code to demonstrate what you're learning, but you don't learn any one language in depth enough to be productive from day 1 at any new job.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#155

Post by neilv » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

Zaskoda wrote: post #137

oneplane wrote: post #99

It's fun when people assume a CS Degree means you are a developer. Practically all development is self-taught, a CS degree is only handy for those moments where you dig into some abstract theory, which in most development jobs hardly ever happens. You mostly spend (or waste) time on tools, frameworks and interaction (both with humans and other systems). Lots of common development is rather mundane compared to all the…

The CS program taught me the history and context for Computer Science. It taught me the fundamental physics that make a gate work and how to put those gates together to make a logic circuit. It then built on this one step at a time, walking us through each layer from how machine code manipulates bits to how to properly evaluate the run time of a complex algorithm. CS told me the comprehensive story. Earning my BS and…

I'm imagining a funny verification process:

1. "I can just tell that person is self-taught." (No, they went to a contemporary dotcom feeder vocational CS program, and spent all their time adding the latest framework keywords, and drilling for the leetcode whiteboard interview.)

2. "It hasn't occurred to me that other person might be self-taught." (Yes, they are.)

3. "100% so far."

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#156

Post by metalrain » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

While I don't have CS degree, I studied 3 years for BS and got some ideas and associations that I can explore more when needed. Not quite 20:80, but maybe like 50:80.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#157

Post by erikpukinskis » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

QuickToBan wrote: post #108

Why does this title presuppose that people with CS degrees can't also be self-taught? A degree is a piece of paper that employers need; it has little to do with learning anything useful.

Because you’re not self taught if you have a degeee.

You can still teach your things, but as soon as you submit to formal training you are no longer “self taught”. That’s what self taught means.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#158

Post by dwags » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

blymphony wrote: post #13

hirundo wrote: post #9

I'm 39 years into a coding career with no CS degree. But as a compulsive auto-didact (probably a common syndrome among HN readers) it hasn't been a barrier. Self-learning is a continual, daily requirement for coders. If you can continue your education as needed for this job you probably also have the skills and interest to learn from scratch. I studied the same books and did the same exercises as my brother the CS ma…

Not even government jobs are out of reach for you. I work as a federal employee without any college degree doing web development with React/Node/AWS.

Same here. I did HAVE to get security+ 501 though

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#159

Post by jhall1468 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

MichaelApproved wrote: post #53

craigsmansion wrote: post #38

"This 22 year old self-taught PHP developer earns $15k a month and lives in an Austrian farmhouse" I mean, f*cking seriously? Yeah, that's harsh, but such a headline's an insult to those with a CS degree and serious self-taught developers alike. To those who made this stay on the front page: given you're competent, you already make the same or more money as those with a CS degree, even if you might know less about th…

1) You're allowed to curse on the internet. HN doesn't have a content filter. Saying "f*cking" reduces the impact the curse is supposed to have. If you feel it's appropriate to curse then just fucking do it. 2) Not everyone does well in a formal school environment. This site shows people that self-taught can still earn good money. 3) Even if a CS degree would increase the Austrian's earnings, how much would it increa…

Regarding 2, I'd like to point out this is both 100% true and somewhat misleading. You certainly can be successful with no degree, but I think anyone without one will tell you it's a significantly more difficult path than a CS grad takes. If you are driven enough to pass some of the most difficult interviews in the industry, I'd argue you probably could have done well in a formal school environment, since the interviews are largely borrowed from it.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#160

Post by mtberatwork » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #63

commandlinefan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a CS degree (in fact, I have both a BS and a Master's degree in CS) - I'm still "self taught" in the sense that I learned to program the same way you did, by reading Stevens, K&R, Knuth, etc. outside of my coursework. Don't get me wrong - I learned a lot of interesting stuff: I never would have learned calculus if it hadn't been a degree requirement, and it helps to understand a lot of AI, but learning to prog…

That was similar to my experience on a CS course - you were expected to do a lot of development, but nobody really specifically taught you about it and you were expected to pick that up by yourself as you went along.

That's how my CS program was (late 90s) as well. You were expected to be somewhat proficient already in C/C++ programming going into the major. Much of the program was mathematics courses. It was brutal. They eventually saw the high drop out rate and re-configured the major. I envy the kids who get to go through the major now. The courses look much more interesting and it's comprised of more actual software engineering coursework.