No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers • Hacker News Board

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#141

Post by neilv » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #130

oneplane wrote: post #99

It's fun when people assume a CS Degree means you are a developer. Practically all development is self-taught, a CS degree is only handy for those moments where you dig into some abstract theory, which in most development jobs hardly ever happens. You mostly spend (or waste) time on tools, frameworks and interaction (both with humans and other systems). Lots of common development is rather mundane compared to all the…

CS is more than abstract theory. It gives you a foundation that you otherwise are unlikely to get. Self-taught means learning things useful for your existing job or things you find interesting. I'm work almost exclusively on the frontend, but my CS degree gave me enough foundation that I'm fairly familiar with compilers (I wrote one in college for a required course). I don't necessarily enjoy writing compilers. But t…

> But the fact remains that I can write a compiler. I can program in C or C++. I do understand pointers. None of this may hold any real value, but I wouldn't be able to do any of them if not for the degree.

I liked your initial point, but the argument weakens... People absolutely have learned all the above things (and very well), on their own, outside of a CS degree, and I bet you could've.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#142

Post by Fellshard » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #130

oneplane wrote: post #99

It's fun when people assume a CS Degree means you are a developer. Practically all development is self-taught, a CS degree is only handy for those moments where you dig into some abstract theory, which in most development jobs hardly ever happens. You mostly spend (or waste) time on tools, frameworks and interaction (both with humans and other systems). Lots of common development is rather mundane compared to all the…

CS is more than abstract theory. It gives you a foundation that you otherwise are unlikely to get. Self-taught means learning things useful for your existing job or things you find interesting. I'm work almost exclusively on the frontend, but my CS degree gave me enough foundation that I'm fairly familiar with compilers (I wrote one in college for a required course). I don't necessarily enjoy writing compilers. But t…

Exactly this. The way I think of it: It expanded the space in which I can search for solutions. I have enough underlying detail of the computer science map to pinpoint where fruitful design opportunities lie, and what patterns are likely to fit, /and/ which concepts would make a poor mapping for a given problem, leading to bad abstractions.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#143

Post by bdcravens » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

No degree here, but it was a unique time in the industry.

Long story condensed: I grew up dirt poor. Went to college. Got my first computer that could get on the Internet (1998). Wasted time online, missed classes, lost financial aid. Ended up going to work for local ISP doing tech support. Quickly moved into web work, and then development. (mostly ColdFusion) This was late 1999, when things were booming and everyone was hiring.

I took a 6 month contract - low on the contracting end of things, but great money for me. Next job was in HR department attached to the airline industry, which was a good job even when the "dot com crash" was occurring. That job ended do to effect of 9/11 on stock prices, but by then I already had a couple of years of work experience under my belt and was on my way.

Today: director of technology for a small company (fancy way of saying I'm the lead developer and lead architect)

What was true for me then is true for many developers today: some are very cut out for this. Looking back, I've always been a programmer; it wasn't a trade someone told me to go to because of the income. That's why I think some bootcampers succeed, and some fail: truth be told, this industry isn't for everyone (alas, I saw many leave the industry in the early 2000s who went on to do accounting or management or car sales or whatever they're a better fit for). Those same students, and myself, would also succeed with a CS degree. I think the lack of one is a matter of circumstance, not a formula for success or failure.

I will say that there are certain jobs I'm not necessarily equipped for due to some missing foundational information. Those situations are the examples that everyone goes to, but the reality is, the world is bigger than SF and FAANG. (And even at the FAANG's there's plenty of Python, Ruby, and JavaScript slingers... the only time they may have used their CS degree was to get past the ego-stroking whiteboard interview)

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#144

Post by jerf » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #58

derekp7 wrote: post #52

I sometimes feel like I have a leg up based on when I learned computers (self taught mid 80's to early 90's). At that time, everything was more low level, and there were fewer, yet higher quality books on the market. So I started off with W. Richard Stephens, K&R, Pike, Sedgewick, and others that you either had to really get it, or you wouldn't get anything. Not that this was the best way to learn, but you knew comin…

I have a CS degree (in fact, I have both a BS and a Master's degree in CS) - I'm still "self taught" in the sense that I learned to program the same way you did, by reading Stevens, K&R, Knuth, etc. outside of my coursework. Don't get me wrong - I learned a lot of interesting stuff: I never would have learned calculus if it hadn't been a degree requirement, and it helps to understand a lot of AI, but learning to prog…

I also have both a BS and a Masters in CS. I took a required software engineering course in either 1999 or 2000. I think that there may not be a single thing taught in that course I would agree with now.

I learned a lot of useful things, like how to write a compiler. But I would say that in the sense of what I really do day-to-day to "program", I'm effectively self-taught too.

(I walk the walk, too; I can and have hired people without degrees, and it's been fine.)

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#145

Post by khendron » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #42

I have no CS degree, and I've been in the industry in various forms since the mid-90s, software developer full time since about 2001 or so. I have no CS degree because I just did not have the math grades to get entrance to university. I've been working at Google as software engineer for 7.5 years now. I guess you could say this is success, but I would not recommend this path; even after 20 years, there's hiring manag…

> there's hiring managers or recruiters that won't look at me, and coworkers whose behavior changes when they find out.

I am very surprised to hear you say this. My background appears to be similar to yours (no CS degree, programming full-time since the mid-90s), and although I did see some resistance in job interviews for about the first 5 years of my career, once I had enough experience under my belt nobody cared what my education was. I've never encountered the type of elitism you describe. Maybe it's a Google thing?

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#146

Post by tiborsaas » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

craigsmansion wrote: post #71

MichaelApproved wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) You're allowed to curse on the internet. HN doesn't have a content filter. Saying "f*cking" reduces the impact the curse is supposed to have. If you feel it's appropriate to curse then just fucking do it. 2) Not everyone does well in a formal school environment. This site shows people that self-taught can still earn good money. 3) Even if a CS degree would increase the Austrian's earnings, how much would it increa…

regarding 2 and 3. My complaint isn't about having or not having a CS degree, I didn't even get that far. It's about the Taboola-like quality of the headline. They're an insult to one's intelligence. If I want to be insulted on the Internet, I'd go elsewhere.

Which part is insulting? That he's young? That he's writing PHP or he makes a shitload of money? I'm envious, I admit it, but I don't find it insulting.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#147

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

mattmar96 wrote: post #134

There's clearly strong feelings in this thread. Whether or not a degree is necessary, I think we can say there's two groups: - People who went to university, going through significant effort for their degree, and want to defend that choice - People who _didnt_ go to school, perhaps suffering from a touch of imposter syndrome, who want to hide their insecurity I'm a 20yr old "self-taught" dev. I'm considering going ba…

[deleted]

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#148

Post by manfredo » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

oneplane wrote: post #99

It's fun when people assume a CS Degree means you are a developer. Practically all development is self-taught, a CS degree is only handy for those moments where you dig into some abstract theory, which in most development jobs hardly ever happens. You mostly spend (or waste) time on tools, frameworks and interaction (both with humans and other systems). Lots of common development is rather mundane compared to all the…

At my University, CS mostly meant learning to program and hack on things unless you specifically did the theory track. Only two of the required classes were theory classes. Compilers and operating systems had some theory in it, but it was mostly about learning how these things work by building your own.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#149

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

25 years in. No CS, just 1 semester of LAS at UIC. Apart from the obvious stuff, have worked on distributed systems and routing protocols, operating system kernels, and compilers. I feel like having to start my career in C probably helped me a bit.

Re: No CS Degree – Interviews with self-taught developers

#150

Post by docker_up » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

I work with a twenty-something year old right now. He graduated from high school. Had his own non-tech company for a while after high school. Decided he wanted to go into coding. One of the best damn coders I've worked with in 25 years. Gives the toughest, most consistent code reviews. He's the type of programmer you can build a startup around.

In another comment a few days ago, I mentioned a 10x engineer I knew. Graduated from high school. Went into the military. Came out and coded. He is the best coder I've worked with.

College education is not necessary to be a successful programmer. You do need to have some predisposition to coding, but you definitely don't need a degree.