Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#21

Post by Udik » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:26 AM UTC

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #20

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #13

Separating actual language from things like orthography is important here. I'm not sure language itself has changed at a significantly different rate than in the past. Internet communication environments do favour changing orthographic norms, which is still interesting, but not the same thing as language change.

In what way do changes to the orthography not constitute changes to the language?

Orthography is just a system to write down language on a specific medium. Recording speech in mp3 instead of analog magnetic tape doesn't change the language.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#22

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:32 AM UTC

Udik wrote: post #21

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way do changes to the orthography not constitute changes to the language?

Orthography is just a system to write down language on a specific medium. Recording speech in mp3 instead of analog magnetic tape doesn't change the language.

That seems a poor example.

'normal' writing v text speak or leet speak would seem to be a better example?

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#23

Post by 19870213 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

Tom Scotts tie-in for the book: 'why typing like this is sometimes okay.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS4X1JfX6_Q

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#24

Post by _emacsomancer_ » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:38 AM UTC

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #20

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #13

Separating actual language from things like orthography is important here. I'm not sure language itself has changed at a significantly different rate than in the past. Internet communication environments do favour changing orthographic norms, which is still interesting, but not the same thing as language change.

In what way do changes to the orthography not constitute changes to the language?

orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. it's like what font you use for writing code. it doesn't affect the syntax or semantics of the language.

which isn't to say that orthography (or fonts) aren't interesting.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#25

Post by benj111 » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 6:41 AM UTC

foldingmoney wrote: post #6

vikramkr wrote: post #3

Its interesting- at first blush I would think that the internet would slow down language evolution by linking together communities in a way that prevents that natural genetic drift of languages between nearby towns with limited intertown travel from happening. Instead, the constraints and form of the medium has created an explosion in linguistic evolution and growth. What an exciting linguistic time to be alive!

Yes.

What an exciting linguistic time to be alive and the best you can muster is 'yes'? How about an 'undoubtedly', 'most assuredly', or a good old pirate 'yarr'.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#26

Post by markdown » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 7:04 AM UTC

I've been annoyed lately by Americanisms creeping into conversation in my little corner of the world. Silly things like "come with" instead of "come with me" and "it's cold out" instead of "it's cold outside". The internet is a major influence by Hollywood hasn't lost its place.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#27

Post by ohduran » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 7:37 AM UTC

Well, I beg to disagree. People keep resorting to the same tricks they've been using for ages to command and control each other. In that sense, nothing has changed: language is a promise we make to each other on a future yet to be seen. Since I read Language in Thought and Action, by S.I. Hayakawa, I see all things related to language in a different way.

If you want to find more, I posted some notes on the book here: https://alvaroduran.me/language-in-though-and-action

Edit: orthography corrections. Which is still language, though ;)

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#28

Post by ohduran » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 7:42 AM UTC

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #24

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way do changes to the orthography not constitute changes to the language?

orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. it's like what font you use for writing code. it doesn't affect the syntax or semantics of the language. which isn't to say that orthography (or fonts) aren't interesting.

That's a fair point, although I think that writing has been with us for so long that we can no longer say that it's something we haven't adapted our language to. Think of it this way: when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? That is probably a different mindset from the one people who can't read are in. Plus, many times orthography has to do with how the word has evolved from a different language.

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#29

Post by autora » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

ohduran wrote: post #28

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

orthography is not a deep part of language. language has been around much longer than writing systems. it's like what font you use for writing code. it doesn't affect the syntax or semantics of the language. which isn't to say that orthography (or fonts) aren't interesting.

That's a fair point, although I think that writing has been with us for so long that we can no longer say that it's something we haven't adapted our language to. Think of it this way: when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? That is probably a different mindset from the one people who can't read are in. Plus, many times orthography has to do with how the word has evolved fr…

>when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down?

Interesting hypothesis.

I don't think I do, and my assumption is that most other people don't either?

I learnt to speak well before I learnt to read and write. The process of speaking without any knowledge of the letters was deeply embedded in my brain.

People that are unable as adults to read or write, or have severe impediments to reading/writing in the same way that I do (e.g. dyslexia) don't speak any differently.

If I try to, I can picture how my spoken word is written down, but I'm pretty sure when I'm talking in a more "autonomic" fashion I'm not really picturing the words?

Re: Why Has Language Changed So Much So Fast? ‘Because Internet’

#30

Post by ohduran » Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 8:14 AM UTC

autora wrote: post #29

ohduran wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point, although I think that writing has been with us for so long that we can no longer say that it's something we haven't adapted our language to. Think of it this way: when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? That is probably a different mindset from the one people who can't read are in. Plus, many times orthography has to do with how the word has evolved fr…

>when you think in terms of defining a word, don't you picture how it's written down? Interesting hypothesis. I don't think I do, and my assumption is that most other people don't either? I learnt to speak well before I learnt to read and write. The process of speaking without any knowledge of the letters was deeply embedded in my brain. People that are unable as adults to read or write, or have severe impediments to…

That's actually a very good point. The way I see it, although I may be wrong, is that people that have difficulties in reading/writing are a minority, at least in developed countries. Thus, they are nevertheless exposed to a way of speaking that is mainly influenced by the majority, who are influenced somehow by the written word.

On the other hand, what strikes me as a contribution of Internet to the language is our capacity to communicate through videos and pictures. Which means that our vocabulary is narrower. I don't have to be so elaborate when describing my room; I can just take a picture, and tweet it.