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China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

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Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#21

Post by pmoriarty »

CountSessine wrote: post #15

It's kind of fascinating how important the defacing of the national insignia is in the reporting in China. An authoritarian government like China's has no real mandate - they have no right to be running the country and no legitimacy that can be claimed. They're a bunch of men that the army listens to. They have the guns and the power and that's it. With such a government, symbols and flags are the proxies for legitim…

"That's some powerful language for wooden sign."

Many people feel the same towards their country's flag, which is merely a piece of fabric.

Legitimacy is also in the eye of the beholder, with one's perception of history, cultural or ethnic identity, and politics playing significant roles.

All of these are of course abstractions, just like symbols like the flag and like the very notion of a country itself. Yet there's no shortage of people willing to kill and die for them.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#22

Post by underthebus »

CountSessine wrote: post #15

It's kind of fascinating how important the defacing of the national insignia is in the reporting in China. An authoritarian government like China's has no real mandate - they have no right to be running the country and no legitimacy that can be claimed. They're a bunch of men that the army listens to. They have the guns and the power and that's it. With such a government, symbols and flags are the proxies for legitim…

Patriotism and nationalism are strong in China and this is not because of the government. In fact the government is an expression of this, not the cause.

China was attacked, invaded, humiliated from the end of the 18th century until 1945. This is what created a reaction that led to the collapse of imperial rule and to the rise of the modern parties (Nationalists and Communists).

The communist government did manage to rid the country of foreign occupation and to recover some breakaway provinces.

Hong Kong, lost to the British in the Opium Wars, was a very bitter symbol and a source of humiliation and most Chinese do credit the current government with getting it back at last.

This is a real source of legitimacy.

This is why showing the protests may be so potent on Chinese public opinion.

Protesters should be worried because if the Chinese government changes policy and starts showing these images this can only mean that they plan a more serious crackdown. Public opinion will demand it.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#23

Post by lostlogin »

underthebus wrote: post #22
CountSessine wrote: post #15

It's kind of fascinating how important the defacing of the national insignia is in the reporting in China. An authoritarian government like China's has no real mandate - they have no right to be running the country and no legitimacy that can be claimed. They're a bunch of men that the army listens to. They have the guns and the power and that's it. With such a government, symbols and flags are the proxies for legitim…

Patriotism and nationalism are strong in China and this is not because of the government. In fact the government is an expression of this, not the cause. China was attacked, invaded, humiliated from the end of the 18th century until 1945. This is what created a reaction that led to the collapse of imperial rule and to the rise of the modern parties (Nationalists and Communists). The communist government did manage to…

> Public opinion will demand it.

In this scenario, is there public opinion that isn’t faked?

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#24

Post by lostlogin »

vkou wrote: post #5
caust1c wrote: post #4

It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. I wonder what happens when the tension comes to a precipice and China sends in security forces to "maintain the peace". I hope for Hong Kong and the global economy's sake, it doesn't come to that. Although it seems like that's exactly what t…

> It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Generally, it's prudent, in the geopolitical arena, for nation stat…

Have you noticed the reception Trump gets when outside the US? Or overseas reactions to his comments, often from senior government officials? It’s been front page news regularly, most recently regarding the UKs ambassador.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#25

Post by underthebus »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #19
CountSessine wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what you think other nations are supposed to do? Or what influence they can possibly have? Hong Kong is Chinese territory - really, they can do whatever they want there. This is the same regime that is holding as many as a million Uyghurs in concentration camps right now. One interesting constraint that Beijing is operating under, though, is Taiwan. The government has argued in favor of reunificati…

> If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit. Of course people can still deny it. Tiananmen Square happened after all. The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. At the end of the day countries can argue up is down if money is involved.

> The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language.

Taiwan is internationally recognised as being part of China. What happened is that the Chinese government of the time fled there during the civil war.

The communists founded the PRC and the ROC government kept control of Taiwan.

Since then the question has been who to recognise as legitimate government. And this has changed over time.

What you're saying is like saying that South Korea never governed the North (or vice versa) or that East Germany never governed West Germany (or vice versa). While obviously factually true this does not diminish the fact that they are part of Korea or Germany as a whole. 'reunification' is the correct term, it's nothing to do with colonisation (what imperialism relates to).

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#26

Post by underthebus »

lostlogin wrote: post #23
underthebus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patriotism and nationalism are strong in China and this is not because of the government. In fact the government is an expression of this, not the cause. China was attacked, invaded, humiliated from the end of the 18th century until 1945. This is what created a reaction that led to the collapse of imperial rule and to the rise of the modern parties (Nationalists and Communists). The communist government did manage to…

> Public opinion will demand it. In this scenario, is there public opinion that isn’t faked?

That's not knowing China. There is a public opinion and a strong one on these issues.

It's not faked. As mentioned Chinese nationalism is what created today's China, not the other way round. The very existence of Hong Kong as a British colony is partly responsible for today's China.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#27

Post by loyukfai »

billfruit wrote: post #16
hart_russell wrote: post #8

There's a lot of negative things that can be said about president Trump, but I for one am glad he's taken economic action against China. It seems like most Nations have resigned themselves to let China become the preeminent super power, which is very troubling to me; to let a nation with legitimate concentration camps, prisoner organ harvesting, and a general lack of moral compass become the most powerful country in…

American prison system is deeply problematic too, one which both parties has continually failed to reform. Perhaps CCP see themselves as guardians of a country, a system thousands of years old. In comparison the existence of the modern democratic West has been for a mere ephemeral duration, and look who likes to lecture whom..

CCP see themselves as the guardian of the CCP, I'd say.

Everything else is hot air.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#28

Post by CogitoCogito »

underthebus wrote: post #25
CogitoCogito wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they send the tanks and the shock-troops in to Hong Kong, then no one can deny that that's all bullshit. Of course people can still deny it. Tiananmen Square happened after all. The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. At the end of the day countries can argue up is down if money is involved.

> The PRC has never governed Taiwan yet essentially no governments call their imperialism what it is and tacitly accept their “unification” language. Taiwan is internationally recognised as being part of China. What happened is that the Chinese government of the time fled there during the civil war. The communists founded the PRC and the ROC government kept control of Taiwan. Since then the question has been who to r…

Look you’re just repeating the same nonsense they are. I don’t even blame you. You’ve heard it so often so that it must be true. The PRC has never governed Taiwan. The ROC hasn’t governed the mainland for close to 70 years. They have separate militaries, currencies, and separate international relations. Hell they even trade with each other. They are two separate countries regardless of what either sides political claims.

Regardless you’re basically proving my point. People can argue anything if they want to. And when money’s involved people will argue whatever you want.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#29

Post by lostlogin »

addicted wrote: post #12
hart_russell wrote: post #8

There's a lot of negative things that can be said about president Trump, but I for one am glad he's taken economic action against China. It seems like most Nations have resigned themselves to let China become the preeminent super power, which is very troubling to me; to let a nation with legitimate concentration camps, prisoner organ harvesting, and a general lack of moral compass become the most powerful country in…

TPP was little more than an attempt to get a bunch of countries to stand up to China. Trump is hardly the first US president to do so. Arguably, Trump's economic actions and continued threats against the EU has led to EU countries cooperating with China in ways they refused to before.

> TPP was little more than an attempt to get a bunch of countries to stand up to China.

It seemed more like we were being bullied into allowing US companies to bulldoze our institutions for their profit, while not giving much in return.

Re: China’s State Media Show Hong Kong Protest Images, Fanning Public Anger

#30

Post by vkou »

lostlogin wrote: post #24
vkou wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty surreal watching this conflict play out. I'm still shocked this is happening on the international stage and other nations are unwilling to take sides in the conflict. Are you equally shocked that other nations are unwilling to take sides in the various political conflicts that we've lived through in the past decade in the United States? Generally, it's prudent, in the geopolitical arena, for nation stat…

Have you noticed the reception Trump gets when outside the US? Or overseas reactions to his comments, often from senior government officials? It’s been front page news regularly, most recently regarding the UKs ambassador.

The vast majority of the time, it's tabloids trying their best to find photographs where he looks like a moron, or the people who are talking to him look pissed off.

The politicians he interacts with are, for the most part, smart enough to keep their opinions about his character to themselves... At least, when he's within earshot. If you recall the election, nearly any time some foreign leader was asked about Trump/Hillary, their response would be the inevitable 'We are going to work with whomever wins.'

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