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Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

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Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#311
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It comes down to whether you believe AGI is achievable. No, it does not. I very much believe AI (or AGI, as you call it) is achievable, but may I remind you that some years after the invention of neural networks, Norbert Wiener, one of the greatest minds of his generations, said that the secret of intelligence would be unlocked within five years, and Alan Turing -- a component of your very own post-pre-AGI era's AG…

That was seven decades ago, and we are not even close to achieving insect-level intelligence. [citation needed] I guess this depends on what "close" is. For something as blue sky as AGI, let me propose the following definition of "close:" X is "close" if there's over a 50% chance of it being achievable in the next 10 years if someone gave $10 billion 2019 US dollars to do it. I think this is a fair metric for "close"…

For a comment this precise I'm surprised you've mistaken spiders for insects :) Anyway, I think that "if you gave us $10B then in ten years we have even odds of producing something as smart as a jumping spider" does make for less inspirational copy than "[we're] building artificial general intelligence with widely distributed economic benefits."

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by selling better AI tools to their customers Microsoft really needs this. ML.NET is quite anemic compared to the industry-standard AI toolkits: TensorFlow, theano, scikit-learn, Torch, Keras, etc. https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/machinelearning-ai/ml-dotn...

Disclosure: I work at Azure in AI/ML Another way to think about it is that for folks building in .NET, ML.NET makes it easy for them to start using many of the ML techniques without having to learn something new. On top of that, we FULLY support all the industry standard tools - TF, Keras, PyTorch, Kubeflow, SciKit, etc etc. We even ship a VM that lets you get started with any of them in one click ( https://azure.mic…

Nice, thanks for the info. Maybe it's proper to think of ML.NET as training wheels, then!

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#313
post #209

Congrats on the fundraise Greg and team! Does this mean that OpenAI may not disclose progress, papers with details, and/or open source code as much as in the past? In other words, what proprietary advantage will Microsoft gain when licensing new tech from OpenAI? I understand that keeping some innovations private may help commercialization, which may help raise more funds for OpenAI, getting us to AGI faster, so my o…

We'll still release quite a lot, and those releases won't look any different from the past. > I understand that keeping some innovations private may help commercialization, which may help raise more funds for OpenAI, getting us to AGI faster, so my opinion is that could plausibly make sense. That's exactly how we think about it. We're interested in licensing some technologies in order to fund our AGI efforts. But eve…

Eventually open ai?

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#314

What do they mean by: "Microsoft will become our exclusive cloud provider"? Being forced to use Azure for all your ML workloads seems a stupid constraint. For example, you might be comfortable with tensorflow/TPU and changing frameworks/tooling might be costly.

Azure has full support for Tensorflow, Keras, PyTorch and the rest of the popular stuff. Shouldn't be a problem at all

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#315
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

macleginn's complaint was that we haven't even modelled simple behavior and I brought these narrow AI examples as a counter argument since they demonstrate that we can, even complex ones. Domain specific? Yeah, bummer. Nowhere I have stated this is the clear path to AGI and you are right, we are missing key building blocks. But I feel like there's too much skepticism agains this field while the advancements are not a…

> macleginn's complaint was that we haven't even modelled simple behavior No, the complaint was about modelling the behavior of simple organisms . Certainly we can model some of their behaviors, many of which are highly stereotyped. But the real fly (say) doesn't only walk/fly/scratch/etc, it also decides when to do all of these things. It has ways to decide what search pattern to fly given confusing scents of food n…

I linked to modeled organisms, I always feel the HN crowd expects academic level of precision and discussions, but that kills regular discussions I would have at dinner tables with friends, I wish it would be a more casual place. Yes, I meant "behavior of simple organisms" :)

Since everything here is loosely defined I feel it's totally pointless to discuss AI, but it's still an intriguing topic. If you look at those insects, they tend to follow brownian motion in 3D, get food and get confused by light, we can get an accurate model of them and more [0].

The key word here is to model, not replication. Simulations are just that, simulations. Given current examples of what's already possible if someone wanted to, could model a detailed 3D environment with physics, scents and food for our little AI fly.

[0] https://www.techradar.com/news/ai-fly-by-artificial-intellig...

Is that a terrible attempt?

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to repost Altman's wager: - If OpenAI does not achieve AGI, and you invested in it, you lose some finite money (or not, depending on the value of their other R&D) - If OpenAI does not achieve AGI, and you did not invest in it, you saved some finite money, which you could invest elsewhere for finite returns - If OpenAI achieves AGI and you invested in it, you get infinite returns, because AGI will capture all…

This does not presuppose any kind of precise definition of infinity.

I think infinity in the gp comment could well be defined as, "the new AGI regime will or won't obliterate me." The gp comment is just Pascal's Wager, with AGI taking the part of God, and "infinite returns" taking the part of an eternity in Heaven or Hell.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#317
post #80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I work at OpenAI.) It comes down to whether you believe AGI is achievable. We've talked about why we think it might be: https://medium.com/syncedreview/openai-founder-short-term-ag... , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHCSNsLKHfM And we certainly have more of a plan for building it than warp drives :). EDIT: I personally think the case for near-term AGI is strong enough that it'd be hard for me work on any other pro…

> It comes down to whether you believe AGI is achievable. No, it does not. I very much believe AI (or AGI, as you call it) is achievable, but may I remind you that some years after the invention of neural networks, Norbert Wiener, one of the greatest minds of his generations, said that the secret of intelligence would be unlocked within five years, and Alan Turing -- a component of your very own post-pre-AGI era's AG…

>I can't tell if you're serious, but assuming you are,

I assume he is, given he is Greg Brockman the CTO and a co-founder. I know Sam Altman is similarly optimistic, having told me on multiple occasions something along the lines of 'I can't focus on anything else right now' which in context I very much took as 'this presently consumes my waking thoughts and I only have time for it'.

This sort of drive is great, but I don't think it necessarily makes it true. Mr. Altman is financially independent, he needn't worry about things like rent or putting food on his table and I imagine Mr. Brockman is also independently wealthy (or at least has several years of a cushion if his OpenAI salary were to suddenly dry up), perhaps not as much though, given his previous position at Stripe.

These two, and perhaps other members of the team, can be overly optimistic about their passion. Both of them have this view, and they both co-founded OpenAI. This optimism and enthusiasm, and interesting project successes so far, certainly gives them steam and attention but how many aspiring athletes think they're going to to get drafted for tens of millions of dollars when in reality they might be lucky to get scouted by a college, or lucky to get drafted to a European or Asian league and not necessarily a major league US team. How many musicians think they'll get into Juilliard and go on to some top-tier symphony/orchestra, or will be the next Country/Rock/Rap/Pop star that takes the world by force, only to end up playing music with their friends at some dive bar a few times a year despite their enthusiasm and skill?

I think a major problem OpenAI has, which I've expressed to Altman, is that they suffer what Silicon Valley in general does. They are myopic, their ranks are composed of people that are 100% behind AI/AGI, they dream about AGI, they want to create AGI, they absolutely think we will have AGI, they want AGI with every fiber of their being. They're high in the sky with apple pie about AGI.

But who's going "hey wait a minute guys" and climbing up a ladder to grab them by the cuff of their pants to pull them back down to the floor and tie a tether to their leg? As far as I know, no one under their employ.

I think OpenAI needs to bring in some outsiders, have a team internally that roles a sanity check, and probably a board member as well. I think it is very dangerous to only have people working on your project that are overly optimistic. It reminds me somewhat of the movie Slingblade, a lawnmower is taken to be repaired and the folks don't know why, they present it to Billy Bob Thornton's Character that has some sort of mental deficit, he looks at it briefly and states "It ain't got no gas". He has a different perspective of the world, he sees things differently, this allows him to see something that the others overlooked. While gobs of gobblygook code and maths is a far different thing than a lawn mower not having fuel, I still think there is a danger in having one of the greatest STEM projects mankind has ever attempted only staffed by a bunch of coders, in a field that is effectively new, that largely have the same training and same life experiences.

Here's a portion of what I said to Mr. Altman back in May of this year and I think it applies more than ever, that isn't exactly related to this comment chain but maybe posting it here will get it seen by more people at OpenAI:

---

You are aware, you guys are in a bubble there. People in the Bay Area are at least peripherally aware of what Artificial Intelligence is presently and could be. For the bulk of the country, and the majority of the world, people are largely clueless. If you say ‘artificial intelligence’ people either have no idea what you are talking about (even people in their 20s and 30s which was shocking to me) or something like HAL 9000, Skynet, Colossus: The Forbid Project, etc come to mind. I think the industry, and OpenAI especially, are missing out on an opportunity to help educate people on what AI can and will be, how AI can be benevolent and even beneficial.

OpenAI is missing out on an opportunity here. While the bulk of resources obviously need to go to actually pursuing research, there is so much you could be doing to educate the masses, to generate an interest in the technology, to get more people passionate about/thinking about machine learning, AI and all of the potential applications.

...possible examples given...

You need to demystify AI Sam, you need to engage people outside of CS/Startup culture, engage people other than academics and venture capitalists.

...more examples given...

---

I will point out in that same exchange I told him that I thought raising the billions OpenAI would need is laughable, well I'll take a healthy bite out of my hat. They managed to raise a billion from a single source, bravo.

I had the pleasure of visiting OpenAI towards the end of Spring '18 and certainly from what I saw they are very serious towards their goal and aren't joking about believing 100% that AGI is an obtainable goal within their reach.

It's also worth noting I applied to OpenAI in the past year, post my visit, for their "Research Assistant, Policy" position and that I was somewhat miffed by the form rejection which, from outside of STEM, seems very cold:

>We know that our process is far from perfect, so please take this primarily as a statement that we have limited interview bandwidth, and must make hard choices. We'd welcome another application in no fewer than 12 months - the best way to stand out is to complete a major project or produce an important result in that time

I still haven't a clue as to what major project or important result, that I can achieve in researching policy for Artificial Intelligence given that:

- Artificial intelligence doesn't exist

- No one has created policy for it outside of science fiction

I may have not been the most qualified, which is fine, as I lacked the 4-year degree they had listed as a requirement, but a human being never once talked to me, never once asked me a question, just a web form and a copy-paste email with my first name inserted.

We don't always need someone with a stack of degrees, that is 100% pro-AI, that has programming experience, to help research policy and presumably lay the groundwork for both OpenAI and the industry. I think a team like that should only involve 10-20% individuals that are experienced in the field, I think you need a diverse team, with diverse experience, with diverse backgrounds. If an AGI is developed, it won't just serve the programmers of the world, it won't just have an impact on their life, STEM folks are far outnumbered by those with no STEM backgrounds.

Who is representing the common human in this? Who's going "are you sure this is a good idea" "should we really be training it with that data" "is it really in the best interests of humanity to allow that company/entity to invest or to license this to these types of causes?"

But hey, what do I know?

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#318
post #285
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans don't seem to need anywhere near the same level of data or training that our current models need. I find this to be a common misunderstanding. If I show you one Stirch Wrench, and you've never seen one before, you learn instantly and perhaps for the rest of your life you'll know what a Strich Wrench is. The problem is I didn't show you 1 example. You saw perhaps millions of examples (your conscious process f…

I think what you're terming a misunderstanding is actually fairly well known, but doesn't account for the magnitude of the sitution. Here's a great article about a paper showing that humans prior knowledge does help with learning new tasks- https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610434/why-humans-learn-f... However, that doesn't account for how quickly toddlers learn a variety of things with a small amount of information…

I’m always puzzled at this idea that humans, at whatever age, are learning things with a small amount of information. The full sensory bandwidth of a baby from pregnancy to toddlerhood seems huge to me. I suspect that helps, as does the millions of years it took to create the hardware it all runs on.

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#319
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand your point about the language, but I guess I think it's reasonable to set the goal for what you actually want and work towards it. It may turn out to be unattainable, but I think generally you need to at least set it as the goal. It also seems less clear to me that they are close or far from it (I don't think it's on the same level as warp drive). I don't know about the god thing you mention and the…

> Therefore we should try and figure out a way to make it safe before AGI exists. Makes no sense to me, how would you ever be able to figure out a way to make something safe before it even exists? Someone who has never built a nuclear reactor most likely could not think of a way to prevent the Chernobyl disaster. (OK, maybe this is a wrong example as someone who did couldn't do this either, but the point should be cl…

I think the argument is that decision theory and goal alignment can be worked on without knowing all the details about how an AGI will work.

https://intelligence.org/2016/12/28/ai-alignment-why-its-har...

Re: Microsoft is investing $1B in OpenAI

#320
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It comes down to whether you believe AGI is achievable. No, it does not. I very much believe AI (or AGI, as you call it) is achievable, but may I remind you that some years after the invention of neural networks, Norbert Wiener, one of the greatest minds of his generations, said that the secret of intelligence would be unlocked within five years, and Alan Turing -- a component of your very own post-pre-AGI era's AG…

I can't find any results for either Norbert Weiner or Alan Turing saying those things - do you have a source?

That's a good question. About a year and a half ago I compiled a large anthology of the history of logic and computation, and I remembered coming across that during my research. What I've been able to find now is the following section from Hodge's Turing biography (p 507-8 in the edition I have):

> Wiener regarded Alan as a cybernetician, and indeed ‘cybernetics’ came close to giving a name to the range of concerns that had long gripped him, which the war had given him an opportunity to develop, and which did not fit into any existing academic category. In spring 1947... Wiener had been able to ‘talk over the fundamental ideas of cybernetics with Mr Turing,’ as he explained in the introduction to his book... Wiener had an empire-building tendency which rendered almost every department of human endeavour into a branch of cybernetics... Wiener delivered with awesome solemnity some pretty transient suggestions, to the general effect that solutions to fundamental problems in psychology lay just around the corner, rather than putting them at least fifty years in the future. Thus in Cybernetics it was seriously suggested that McCulloch and Pitts had solved the problem of how the brain performed visual pattern recognition. The cybernetic movement was rather liable to such over-optimistic stabs in the dark.

So if this passage is indeed the source of my recollection, while very poor and perhaps exaggerated, I think it's pretty true to the spirit...

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