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NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

spectrum.ieee.org

11–20 of 168 posts

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#12

All this "get back to the moon" stuff makes me wonder what the purpose of going to the moon actually is. It's definitely different for different people. If the whole point of the endeavor is just another space race exercise to demonstrate American prowess like the we did in the 1960's-- perhaps that's a waste of effort? Do we really need that symbolic achievement at such an enormous cost? Not to mention the opportuni…

The purpose is likely to generate interest in space, and to rebuild the technology the US had to conduct missions there.

The average person doesn't care much about a probe landing on a comet, even if it is extremely impressive technologically. If you can show people walking on a celestial body, the average person can put that into perspective.

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#13
The thing about the original moon landing programme was that it had a great clarity of outcome and timeline.

What: Land a man on the moon and return him safely

When: Before the decade is out

That meant NASA could really focus and throw out everything that wasn't directly on that path.

Reusability - take too long, we'll build each craft from scratch.

Permanent mission - Too complicated, keep the missions very short.

Multi-launch architecture - Nope, too complicated again. Launch it all together.

Crew size? Two on the moon so they could help each other, one in the CM to aid in docking. Want a larger crew? Sorry, no. Three is the minimum so that's what you get.

Complicated re-entry vehicles? Nope. We know we can make ablative work.

What is NASA's manned programme for now? Maybe the Moon. When, who knows? Maybe Mars. What architecture, when, how, for how long? Who knows. Moon orbit? For what, when? who knows.

It's impossible to run a clear programme if you don't know what it's for!

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#14
The whole idea of the Senate Launch System (SLS) is flawed from the start. When NASA has been at its finest, it has been on the edge of innovation. Think Apollo, Shuttle, ISS, all the Mars Landers, the Voyagers, Cassini, New Horizons, etc.

So why is NASA wasting billions to make a rocket, something we've known how to do reliability for more than 50 years? The reason is simple - politics. NASA is a political agency. They suffer from the same short-sighted, narrow focus thinking that a lot of other areas in policy live with. This is what hamstrings NASA the most, the constant change in directive, especially with regards to human spaceflight.

There are commercial alternatives that can already provide heavy lift capability, or at the very least are well positioned to take $1-3B and get one with even heavier capabilities flying. NASA is far too risk adverse these days to be building a rocket or a crew vehicle. They figured this out for commercial crew, why can't they figure it out for other architectures? Imagine NASA being able to cut the $2.5B/year line item that SLS has ballooned to and redirect that to other human spaceflight goals. Leaving commercial companies to build does not mean NASA is entirely removed from the process, for example ULA/SpaceX have been heavily reliant on knowledge transfer and oversight from NASA on their path towards commercial crew.

Honestly, having just graduated from a top aerospace/electrical engineering school and having experience in the industry myself, this is why you see the top talent going to places like SpaceX, Blue Origin, and a whole host of other commercial companies. These companies have a clear vision that NASA lacks. The NASA centers recent graduates gravitate towards are Caltech/JPL and APL/Goddard because they operate (almost) entirely independently from the rest of bureaucratic monster with serious research and a get-it-done attitude. A lot of the work at other facilities is farmed out to commercial companies, leaving a lot of NASA people in oversight/paperwork heavy jobs. This is not a blanket statement, but there is certainly a lot of "one technician doing the work and 5 engineers watching him" going on.

So if you follow the idea that NASA belongs at the forefront of research, what type of work do they do? Well, they are research heavy and build only the most advanced tech as a result. They research Mars and build rovers/architecture to further that research and get humans there. They conduct research on the ISS to further medicine for people back on Earth and learn about long term "0g" exposure. They research deepspace travel and build lunar gateways and architecture to support that. They build drones to go to Titan, build probes to fly by outer planets, etc. And then, they pay a commercial company to fly it for them (just because NASA did the bulk of the research that enables current rockets to be so successful does NOT mean they have to continue being the one making the rocket. Yes SLS has Boeing as a primary contractor, but the point is it's branded as a NASA rocket).

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#16

The thing about the original moon landing programme was that it had a great clarity of outcome and timeline. What: Land a man on the moon and return him safely When: Before the decade is out That meant NASA could really focus and throw out everything that wasn't directly on that path. Reusability - take too long, we'll build each craft from scratch. Permanent mission - Too complicated, keep the missions very short. M…

constraints help drive engineering decisions!

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#17

All this "get back to the moon" stuff makes me wonder what the purpose of going to the moon actually is. It's definitely different for different people. If the whole point of the endeavor is just another space race exercise to demonstrate American prowess like the we did in the 1960's-- perhaps that's a waste of effort? Do we really need that symbolic achievement at such an enormous cost? Not to mention the opportuni…

[deleted]

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Bush every incoming president has set up a “vision” that scraps all previous work and which then in turn gets scrapped by the next guy. I wonder how the people working there can keep motivated knowing that most of their work is just for show. Seems unmanned missions are fine but manned missions are just a mess.

From what I've heard, a lot of people have left NASA as a result of the month-long government shutdown this year. NASA is a political football, and it's not going to get any better: it just takes too long to see a big mission (i.e., manned ones) through, so they're never going to get done with the way our government is running these days. The probes are usually OK because those can get done a lot quicker.

> From what I've heard, a lot of people have left NASA as a result of the month-long government shutdown this year.

I've got two friends there, a civil servant and a contractor, and I've heard no such thing. That doesn't mean it isn't true, but I'm curious whether there's any data to back this up. You'd have to be careful looking at that data, too: a lot of people are retiring from NASA simply because they're old.

Nothing that's happened to NASA lately is a new phenomenon.

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Bush every incoming president has set up a “vision” that scraps all previous work and which then in turn gets scrapped by the next guy. I wonder how the people working there can keep motivated knowing that most of their work is just for show. Seems unmanned missions are fine but manned missions are just a mess.

The problem is that since there's always a switch between Republican and Democrats, each president has a different perspective on the overall NASA mission (plus each one wants to leave a big mark), so they keep changing. I think what the people actually working there try to do (as it can be seen here) is find a way to fit what they have already done, with what the new mission statement is, so that they won't have to…

I don't think it's accurate to say there are any partisan components to the NASA mission. I guess the exception is the Republican party is trying to cut Earth observation satellites because the data coming back is politically inconvenient. However that's a pretty small part of NASA's budget.

Re: NASA’s Lunar Space Station Is a Great/Terrible Idea

#20

All this "get back to the moon" stuff makes me wonder what the purpose of going to the moon actually is. It's definitely different for different people. If the whole point of the endeavor is just another space race exercise to demonstrate American prowess like the we did in the 1960's-- perhaps that's a waste of effort? Do we really need that symbolic achievement at such an enormous cost? Not to mention the opportuni…

JFK didn't have any particular love for the scientific discovery of a moon mission. It was the same kind of thing that you're describing today: demonstrate American "greatness" in a world that seemed increasingly hostile - just substitute Islamicists/Terrorism for USSR/Cold War.

I think that tells us two things:

1) We can still accomplish great things even from lowly motivations, and

2) We shouldn't necessarily take those lowly motivations as proof of a craven administration.

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