What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#51

Post by MaxBarraclough » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #45

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not unreasonable for someone to find another employer... Sure. If you want to work remotely, you should find a job where you can. > I am pointing out that treating people differently damages teams. We're talking about an employer making reasonable accommodations for an employee with a disability. What alternative would you prefer? There are plenty of legitimate reasons to treat employees differently. Maternity…

> We're talking about an employer making reasonable accommodations for an employee with a disability. Are we? Either attendance at the office is vital to the job or isn't. If you treat different members of your team differently you will annoy them, damage morale and damage your team. > Maternity leave is another instance. If your paternity leave isn't comparable to your maternity leave that's not OK.

> Either attendance at the office is vital to the job or isn't.

Not so. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together, but it's not outright fatal to permit remote working. That's why it's a reasonable accommodation.

> If you treat different members of your team differently you will annoy them, damage morale and damage your team.

I don't think so. Would you get resentful if a colleague took maternity leave?

I can't imagine a colleague reacting negatively to a clearly reasonable accommodation for a disability.

> If your paternity leave isn't comparable to your maternity leave that's not OK.

I'm not sure that's relevant, but sure, equal paternity leave isn't a bad idea.

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#52

Post by jchw » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #37

jchw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s expensive and we don’t really need it. Would be nice, though.

Well. Using headphones all day damages our hearing... We work better without constant distractions. We are pretty expensive to employ and then use at 50% potential.

1. Does using headphones damage our hearing? I am aware that using certain kinds of open earphones are associated with hearing loss but my understanding was that this had more to do with how high the volume needs to be to drown out the noise. Proper IEMs and noise cancelling headphones should definitely not suffer from that issue.

2. 50% potential is a bold claim, but even if that were true it may still be economically wise to stick with the 50% penalty considering how expensive it would be to have a large number of employees with their own offices.

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#53

Post by hdfbdtbcdg » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #47

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The beauty of living in a free country is that I can make up my own mind.

Sort of. You can make up your own mind to leave. Good luck violating EEO Laws.

Show me the law that says reasonable accommodations include things that apparently make the job impossible for other employees?

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#54

Post by nickpeterson » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #17

Jare wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they do the push-up/plank thing if you want to speak I don't know what that specific practice is, and I think I really really don't want to know.

In such a software development organization, at the end of each meeting, everyone immediately has a moment of mindfulness, then pops another pill, shotguns a Red Bull, crushes the empty can on their forehead, shouts "Yo! Bro !", and crashes through the loft meeting room window, down to the open-plan work tables below. If you want to make a culture fit, you have to break a few eggs.

When an industry recruits 22 year old men, is it surprising when the workplace resembles a barracks?

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#55

Post by hdfbdtbcdg » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #51

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're talking about an employer making reasonable accommodations for an employee with a disability. Are we? Either attendance at the office is vital to the job or isn't. If you treat different members of your team differently you will annoy them, damage morale and damage your team. > Maternity leave is another instance. If your paternity leave isn't comparable to your maternity leave that's not OK.

> Either attendance at the office is vital to the job or isn't. Not so. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together, but it's not outright fatal to permit remote working. That's why it's a reasonable accommodation. > If you treat different members of your team differently you will annoy them, damage morale and damage your team. I don't think so. Would you get resentful if a colleague took mate…

> I don't think so. Would you get resentful if a colleague took maternity leave?

Of course not. Parental leave is offered to all employees right?

> I can't imagine a colleague reacting negatively to a clearly reasonable accommodation for a disability.

Nor could I. A clearly unreasonable one is not quite the same as a reasonable one is it?

> Not so. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together, but it's not outright fatal to permit remote working. That's why it's a reasonable accommodation.

We disagree. That is fine. But I doubt either of us will pursuade the other here so let's just leave this argument.

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#56

Post by MaxBarraclough » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #49

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, you're ignoring my point. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together. It won't be fatal to make an exception, and indeed it's possible run a company purely on remote working, but the point stands.

It’s the Sorites Paradox. If it’s not fatal to make an exception for one person, is it fatal to make an exception for two? If it is, does that mean a team with one remote working exception can’t take on another? Does that fall afoul of reasonable accommodation rules? If so, what do they do? Is the accommodation that was previously workable (and therefore reasonable) now no longer workable? I get your point, but I pro…

> I get your point, but I probably don’t think it’s quite as strong as you might think.

Sure it is. There isn't any real question of the sky falling down here.

Plenty of countries have strong laws protecting the rights of disabled employees, and it hasn't ruined their economies.

It's not that hard to insist on reasonable accommodations depending on circumstance. It's not like we force the fire service to hire people who don't have the use of their legs.

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#57

Post by MaxBarraclough » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #55

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either attendance at the office is vital to the job or isn't. Not so. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together, but it's not outright fatal to permit remote working. That's why it's a reasonable accommodation. > If you treat different members of your team differently you will annoy them, damage morale and damage your team. I don't think so. Would you get resentful if a colleague took mate…

> I don't think so. Would you get resentful if a colleague took maternity leave? Of course not. Parental leave is offered to all employees right? > I can't imagine a colleague reacting negatively to a clearly reasonable accommodation for a disability. Nor could I. A clearly unreasonable one is not quite the same as a reasonable one is it? > Not so. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together,…

> Of course not. Parental leave is offered to all employees right?

It isn't, that just the point -- it's offered to employees who have just had a child.

We can view accommodations of disabilities the same way. They should be offered to all employees to whom they apply.

> A clearly unreasonable one is not quite the same as a reasonable one is it?

I'm just not convinced this is a real problem.

> We disagree. That is fine.

On which point?

It's not a matter of opinion that plenty of companies are effective based entirely on remote work, right?

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#58

Post by delinka » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

pridkett wrote: post #5

I really liked this article. A lot of the things mentioned seem to be necessary because the author has “passing privilege”, but some are necessary due to poor management practices. Stand ups and in person meetings are two spots where this frequently happens. I’ve inherited teams where everyone needs to stand during standup, or worse, where they do the push-up/plank thing if you want to speak. It shouldn’t take a grea…

> they do the push-up/plank thing if you want to speak

Is this punishment for having standup? Fine, let's get rid of it. Instead, let's have a team meeting over coffee for 15min every morning where we discuss our challenges from yesterday, and what we think we'll do today, and anything keeping us from working.

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#59

Post by __s » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #39

sokoloff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s another point of view that says “if it’s workable for person D who happens to have a disability, it is likely also workable for persons A-C and E-Z.”

With respect, you're ignoring my point. There's value to team cohesion in having a team physically together. It won't be fatal to make an exception, and indeed it's possible run a company purely on remote working, but the point stands.

The thing about being able to have remote workers is that it works best when the company culture works in a way where everyone could be remote

In fact, now a disabled person is going to likely be excluded from the team because they're working remotely. How do you include them? By making everyone remote. That way people don't rely on a culture where documentation is interrupting someone at their desk (ps they won't respond on Slack or what have you, because if you really need to ask them something, just come by & interrupt them at their desk)

So now in order to accommodate someone you have to change the work environment for everyone

Re: What I Know About Being Sick at Work (2018)

#60

Post by hdfbdtbcdg » Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #38

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past I have swallowed such arguements about desks and chairs - now I have a bad back. I won't put myself at a disadvantage again. Regular home office is not even close to being in the same class as specific software or food or even a disabled car parking spot. Everything is case by case of course so I can't tell you. Often I wouldn't tell you. If I felt undervalued at work I would just get another job.

(I appreciate your comment about accommodations that should be offered to everyone, and for which it turned out one time you too needed but did not get in time. That's upsetting and should not have happened. And I understand your skepticism of when a company says something isn't possible.) But for the hypothetical, in an HN discussion, of when it's truly not possible to offer the thing to everyone... you can't answer…

If you give a list of examples I can tell you how I would feel about them...