Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#61

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #31

mighty_bander wrote: post #7

Anyone who says unions are no longer necessary should go and work in an Amazon warehouse for a year. Until the workforce organizes, this is going to keep happening.

It seems that the US union law favors so called enterprise bargaining or worksite-level bargaining. Companies and workplaces either unionize or not. That kind of system pits unions against companies. If the workplace unionizes, non-unionized companies get an advantage. Whoever fucks their workers hardest gets competitive advantage. My experience of unions comes as an entrepreneur in countries with sectoral bargaining…

> Whoever fucks their workers hardest gets competitive advantage.

This is true, but companies that don’t fuck their employees also have a competitive advantage.

So it’s kind of not true. It really depends on the details which advantage is bigger.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#62

Post by zdragnar » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #37

spodek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Capitalists who don't want collective bargaining probably shouldn't motivate people to see their strength in numbers. I don't see any mystery in why employees would band together in situations like these. They'd be fools not to.

[flagged]

To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public.

It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one that had gotten a fair amount of media attention. No-one wants to work hard when they see someone else taking it easy, knowing that their next pay raise is more closely tied to seniority than it is to on the job performance.

Another example is the number of states where unions arranged "votes" to force "home health care workers" to unionize. That is, if you are taking care of a family member who recieves certain kinds of disability welfare, you are automatically deemed a union member, and the dues are taken from the welfare payments.

It was nothing more than a blatant money grab when it happened where I lived, and I can assure you that these peope got far less from their "representation" than they got in dues, since they were never technically employees in the first place and no bargaining or contact to begin with.

Yes, there are better ways that unions can operate. There are some good unions out there. There is also plenty to criticise too, and pretending that they are a universal good isn't helping anyone.

Edit: perhaps the biggest complaint is that the unions are too powerful. Even leaving is hard; the New Haven firefighters had to file a lawsuit to stop the former parent union fron sending their members to collections agencies for their dues after they left. https://www.nhregister.com/news/article/New-Haven-firefighte...

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#63

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

ericzawo wrote: post #8

massysett wrote: post #5

I see “modern day slavery” and I stop reading. There are no whips. No rape. No families torn apart. No slave ships. Grow up people.

Just as the means of production have evolved so too have the means of oppression and control. Not that I'm putting words in OP's mouth, but I'm sure they are not making a direct comparison of "this is just like that," more a "This is the modern version of that."

It’s not the modern version of slavery though. The modern version of slavery is indentured workers in Dubai, prisoners is the U.S., sex trafficking victims.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#64

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

ericzawo wrote: post #8

massysett wrote: post #5

I see “modern day slavery” and I stop reading. There are no whips. No rape. No families torn apart. No slave ships. Grow up people.

Just as the means of production have evolved so too have the means of oppression and control. Not that I'm putting words in OP's mouth, but I'm sure they are not making a direct comparison of "this is just like that," more a "This is the modern version of that."

Given that the US still prosecutes people for slavery, it's easy to argue that modern day slavery exists, and this is not it.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#65

Post by belltaco » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #5

I see “modern day slavery” and I stop reading. There are no whips. No rape. No families torn apart. No slave ships. Grow up people.

>I see “modern day slavery” and I stop reading. There are no whips. No rape. No families torn apart. No slave ships. Grow up people.

You stopped reading because there were no practices of old school slavery in the so called modern day slavery?

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#66

Post by belltaco » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:45 PM UTC

artificial wrote: post #59

skyfaller wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One obvious example of modern day slavery in the United States is prison labor. It's not rare, and it's still disproportionately black people because of our racist "justice" system.

Is your argument that all demographics commit crime at the same rate? For example the vast majority of those incarcerated are in for violent crime, and a significant number of those involve killing.

I think the argument is that the treatment is inhumane because of the demographics involved.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#67

Post by metaphor » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

kerng wrote: post #3

One of the biggest issues seems the problem with bathroom breaks and time lost doing so. Why does Amazon not put more bathrooms in the warehouses, so it doesnt take 10 minutes just to walk there and back? That's like a distance of more then half a mile... Not drinking any water during ones shift doesn't seem a healthy solution.

> Why does Amazon not put more bathrooms in the warehouses, so it doesnt take 10 minutes just to walk there and back?

Not my industry, but I wonder if building code requirements for contracted facilities construction has anything to do with this. Would be interesting to hear perspective of civil engineers on this, in particular, those involved with standing up fulfillment centers.

For example, a few observations from the 2017 Florida Building Code[1]:

Minimum 1 lavatory per 100 and 1 drinking fountain per 1,000 in occupancies classified for storage (per Table 2902.1). Natural inquiry that arises in my mind is what the specified occupancy of the fulfillment center in question is.

In occupancies other than malls, lavatories normally located not more than 1 story above/below the target space, path of travel not to exceed 500 feet (per 2902.3.2). However, there's a possible exception for factory and industrial occupancies which allow this requirement to be waived with approval. I wonder if Amazon has pursued this exemption when contracting the construction of their fulfillment centers.

[1] https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/FBC2017/chapter-29-plumbin...

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#68

Post by krapp » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #62

krapp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one…

Sure, unions can be corrupt and work against the interests of their members, but businesses and lawmakers can also be corrupt and collude to exploit their workers and constituents. Collective action is a necessary counterbalance to the bias in capitalist societies towards the ownership class at the expense of the labor class.

I don't think unions are universally good or bad, but they are the reason employees get paid in legal tender rather than company scrip, get weekends off rather than working seven day shifts, and why labor laws even exist. An attitude of antipathy towards unions doesn't offer a better alternative to them, as much as wish businesses and governments could just be left alone to treat labor as they please.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#69

Post by mighty_bander » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #62

krapp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To better understand antipathy towards unions in the US, do a google search for "new york rubber room". Tens of millions of dollars a year spent on salaries for teachers who had to be pulled from classrooms but couldn't be fired. Due to the backlog of arbiters, they sit around doing nothing at all. It's bad for them, bad for the schools, and bad for the public. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it is also one…

You've highlighted a common union-busting tactic with the New York teachers example. The employer won't fund sufficient resources for arbitration, and so innocent and guilty alike languish for ages, and somehow this is the union's fault, as if denying the accused a fair hearing was a reasonable option.

Between you, me, and the internet, I agree the seniority system is horrible, but if you don't like it, you are free to elect representatives that will abolish it. Unless of course you're in a non-union workplace, in which case you can either put up with it or quit.

Re: Reddit AMA: I'm a Former Amazon Fulfillment Center Employee

#70

Post by Doubl » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

Greenspan, in his testimony, then suggests technological change and international competition as possible reasons for worker insecurity, before noting that "suppressed wage cost growth as a consequence of job insecurity can be carried only so far. At some point, the tradeoff of subdued wage growth for job security has to come to an end. In other words, the relatively modest wage gains we have experienced are a temporary rather than a lasting phenomenon because there is a limit to the value of additional job security people are willing to acquire in exchange for lesser increases in living standards.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jul...