Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies' • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#81

Post by hu3 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #67

pqdbr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just read the article you posted, one military that was flying in a different airplane than the president was (it was a stand-by backup aircraft) was arrested with 39kg of cocain. The president's response? "I just wished the arrest happened in Indonesia", where they have death penalty for such crimes. (source https://g1.globo.com/jornal-nacional/noticia/2019/06/29/pena... ) Just so that you know, when Bolsonar…

The bit about it being on a different plane is enough; Bolsonaro's response and that little anecdote are irrelevant. See for example Trey Radel, a former U.S. Representative who was arrested for purchasing cocaine after voting for a bill to drug test food stamp recipients: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trey-radel-drug-testing_n_430...

You're comparing someone who was caught with cocaine in his apartment with someone who wasn't even in the flight where cocaine was found.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#82

Post by FailMore » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

devxvda wrote: post #65

bharam wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A global body needs to be created to handle environmental policy I think some people have too much faith in the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to protect the environment. A better solution would be decentralized decision making. Place ownership of the rain forest in private hands and let the market determine the most valuable use of the land. If a sufficient number of people believe the rain forest should b…

> Place ownership of the rain forest in private hands and let the market determine the most valuable use of the land. I find it much easier to believe that this satire, because were it up to the “Market”, the rainforest would be gone, and every river polluted. Short-term profits are incompatible with environmental protection. Just because a few men get rich doesn’t mean the result is what’s overall best for society.…

Exactly, only if the environment is given financial value will things change. I can see that being the only solution to the current situation. It enables financial optimisation, but results in protection. There will be much resistance though.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#83

Post by eropple » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

jointpdf wrote: post #76

eropple wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be actively fought against, at least in the United States, as an attempt to indoctrinate kids with "liberal biases". Which is, if one thinks about it, the real problem at hand: when the political ideology of half a country requires complete and uncritical rejection of...yanno... the things happening in front of one's face, you can't actually fix the thing. People have to agree that it's broken first.

FWIW, I went to a public middle school in rural Michigan in the 90s (not exactly a liberal bastion), and we learned how to differentiate between untrustworthy/legitimate sources on the internet. It may have just been a one or two computer lab sessions, but it has stuck with me. So, while I’d support a policy from high that guarantees everyone this type of education, a single computer lab teacher can have a major impa…

I went to school in Maine; I have a feeling that you and I had a very similar experience.

I think the good faith available has rather remarkably drained out of even that, today.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#84

Post by oposa » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #44

ChrisSD wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's fine. A productive discussion can be had along those lines. However if someone refuses to even acknowledge that there are facts then there's no discussion to be had. It almost feels like we're in an age with a kind of new post-modernism. Everyone can have their own reality and make up their own "facts" to fit. This makes science and philosophy irrelevant because there is no shared reality that can be inves…

IMHO, it stems from never updating our basic education from an information-scarce world to an information-flooded one. I'm firmly in favor of making a media consumption class mandatory for primary education. Essentially a mix of logic & fallacies, evaluating sources, and meta scientific news literacy.

No amount of education is going to save you if the truth isn't viable. The truth isn't "climate change exists". The truth is "climate change exists and you are going to pay for it". And there isn't much of an alternative to that. I don't like populism either, but what alternative do you have? If the way to promise development is by cutting down the Amazon, that is what is going to happen unless there is a viable alternative.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#85

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #75

I see remarkable similarity in Bolsonaro's response on a national scale to nearly every American's response when choosing between making money and the environment. Suggest to an American to fly less and over 99% will say, "But my job. . ." as humans fly more than ever. Not to dwell on flying, we could talk of miles driven, plastic discarded, air conditioning empty rooms, eating more beef than ever. The scale is diffe…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#86

Post by bharam » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

devxvda wrote: post #65

bharam wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A global body needs to be created to handle environmental policy I think some people have too much faith in the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to protect the environment. A better solution would be decentralized decision making. Place ownership of the rain forest in private hands and let the market determine the most valuable use of the land. If a sufficient number of people believe the rain forest should b…

> Place ownership of the rain forest in private hands and let the market determine the most valuable use of the land. I find it much easier to believe that this satire, because were it up to the “Market”, the rainforest would be gone, and every river polluted. Short-term profits are incompatible with environmental protection. Just because a few men get rich doesn’t mean the result is what’s overall best for society.…

I disagree with your overall point of view. Profits (i.e. savings) is exactly what will save the environment by enabling the preservation of the rain forest and other desirable environments.

I do agree with you that incentives have to change. Humanity absolutely depends on industry to survive and leaving precious resources like the rain forests in the hands of politicians and bureaucrats will ensure their destruction through corruption.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#87

Post by user982 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

reese_john wrote: post #78

Here's the actual Amazon deforestation data in the last decades: https://imgur.com/a/cA5mXMc 2018 was a bit higher than 2017, but there is a clear downward trend. Honestly I would like to see more data points before crucifying Bolsonaro.

Bolsonaro took power in 2019, replacing the more left-leaning Workers' Party, which held the presidency from 2003 to 2018*.

With those dates in mind, look at your data again.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#88

Post by benj111 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

harshreality wrote: post #51

Leaders do not operate in an environment where they can tell the truth and do things based on facts on the ground.[1] Leaders have one real job, that is to reward (through jobs/money/political clout) people who help them. If they don't think telling the truth about deforestation or global warming will help their sycophants, they will tell lies. [1] CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR…

Surely their real job is to get reelected?

In that case should they not at least project an aura of being in touch with reality.

On this issue voters either don't care, in that case they wont mind you telling the truth. Do care about deforestation but value jobs over environment, in which case you're losing their votes. Do care and value the environment over jobs, in which case they still don't want to be lied to, and the lying doesn't exactly pander to them. I cant think of many other reasonable political outlooks. So what is this? virtue signalling to some group? Is there a group so out of touch with reality that only lies sound reasonable? I don't know.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#89

Post by dvtrn » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #60

hobs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dismissing facts as lies is just lying. It should not be brushed off as an acceptable position.

I mean can you blame them when all you need to do to make a problem go away is say FAKE NEWS and people eat it up? It's much easier then presenting evidence yourself, especially when your motives go against facts, because then you need to find a way to create fake facts like the oil companies do with denying global warming.

I once watched, jaw somewhat agape as an attorney on twitter (or someone whose bio said she was an attorney) sparred with other netizens over a claim she had made about an event someone (a third-party) said was taking place in her community relating to a local business.

Respondents began to reply asking for additional information, how the claim could be verified, many simply asked for a source-others expressed concern for accuracy of information because they were potentially affected. Maybe one out of every few were “trollish” by popular definition. I read many of them. Very few seemed to be politically charged or even aggressive towards this attorney, they simply asked for more information.

Her responses were aggressive and antagonistic, calling respondents “trolls” and “enablers”. Even people asking in a considerate and mild mannered way because they were trying to inform themselves on the affair.

No facts ever came out. From the attorney or the local entity she claimed to have information on. She encouraged others to take the lack of information as proof that her friend’s claims were truth. Many did.

It was something to behold. An attorney was sharing what was effectively hearsay on twitter about a local business and actively combatting people asking for more information.

Strange times indeed.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#90

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #75

I see remarkable similarity in Bolsonaro's response on a national scale to nearly every American's response when choosing between making money and the environment. Suggest to an American to fly less and over 99% will say, "But my job. . ." as humans fly more than ever. Not to dwell on flying, we could talk of miles driven, plastic discarded, air conditioning empty rooms, eating more beef than ever. The scale is diffe…

[deleted]