Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies' • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#71

Post by benj111 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

wwdhx wrote: post #3

emn13 wrote: post #2

We really live in the age of head-in-sand. How do you do anything about that? Somehow reality has become not just optional and uncertain in our policies, perceptions and opinions, but downright irrelevant. When there's no merit in even trying to be truthful and accurate, well... you get this.

Dismissing facts as lies is just... something to say. Bolsonaro and his followers know this is true but they simply don't care. Which is a reasonable political stance I reckon.

"Which is a reasonable political stance I reckon"

Run that by me again.

How is denying something you know to be true a reasonable stance.

How is taking (or actively not taking) a course of action you know will harm the people you've been elected to serve, a reasonable stance.

This is pretty basic stuff for a democratically elected official.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#72

Post by hjek » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

FailMore wrote: post #24

What needs to happen for Long Term Earth? 1) The economics of every process must take into account the cost of the environment. If it's not going to biodegrade, that costs. If it comes from an unsustainable logging practice, that costs. If came in a boat from across the world, that costs. Adding the cost of environmental consequences to all stages of production opens up the room for investors to sensibly bet on less…

2) Sounds like a global citizens' assembly[0].

[0]: https://rebellion.earth/act-now/resources/citizens-assembly/

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#73

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #20

emn13 wrote: post #2

We really live in the age of head-in-sand. How do you do anything about that? Somehow reality has become not just optional and uncertain in our policies, perceptions and opinions, but downright irrelevant. When there's no merit in even trying to be truthful and accurate, well... you get this.

I think this is one of the costs of democracy. We could always just take power away from all the uneducated who rely on emotion-based decision making. And then somehow punish the educated who do the same despite being equipped with the tools to parse the facts. I'm sure this would work out horribly.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#74

Post by benj111 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #60

hobs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dismissing facts as lies is just lying. It should not be brushed off as an acceptable position.

I mean can you blame them when all you need to do to make a problem go away is say FAKE NEWS and people eat it up? It's much easier then presenting evidence yourself, especially when your motives go against facts, because then you need to find a way to create fake facts like the oil companies do with denying global warming.

"I mean can you blame them"

Yes.

I know that everyone's jaded by various neo-fascist leaders, but this stuff does need to be called out, else it gets normalised.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#75

Post by spodek » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

I see remarkable similarity in Bolsonaro's response on a national scale to nearly every American's response when choosing between making money and the environment.

Suggest to an American to fly less and over 99% will say, "But my job. . ." as humans fly more than ever. Not to dwell on flying, we could talk of miles driven, plastic discarded, air conditioning empty rooms, eating more beef than ever.

The scale is different, but the emotional response is similar.

An alternative: we could see ourselves as part of something greater than ourselves that benefits us all including ourselves. We want Bolsonaro to feel that way. We can do it ourselves and reduce our waste each by a good 75 to 90 percent.

As Frankl said, "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#76

Post by jointpdf » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #58

ethbro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, it stems from never updating our basic education from an information-scarce world to an information-flooded one. I'm firmly in favor of making a media consumption class mandatory for primary education. Essentially a mix of logic & fallacies, evaluating sources, and meta scientific news literacy.

This would be actively fought against, at least in the United States, as an attempt to indoctrinate kids with "liberal biases". Which is, if one thinks about it, the real problem at hand: when the political ideology of half a country requires complete and uncritical rejection of...yanno... the things happening in front of one's face, you can't actually fix the thing. People have to agree that it's broken first.

FWIW, I went to a public middle school in rural Michigan in the 90s (not exactly a liberal bastion), and we learned how to differentiate between untrustworthy/legitimate sources on the internet. It may have just been a one or two computer lab sessions, but it has stuck with me.

So, while I’d support a policy from high that guarantees everyone this type of education, a single computer lab teacher can have a major impact on their own.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#77

Post by fencepost » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

oldwinebottles wrote: post #18

I don't have the time or patience to engage, but for the ones that don't have a side in Brazilian politics, the Amazon should be fine. Bolsonaro is a fool with words, but has shown to be well intended. He'll probably come around on this particular issue (as it has already happened a few times during his government).

Following Bolsonaro is another place to apply the Maddow Rule: ignore what they say, pay attention to what they do.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#78

Post by reese_john » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:22 PM UTC

Here's the actual Amazon deforestation data in the last decades: https://imgur.com/a/cA5mXMc

2018 was a bit higher than 2017, but there is a clear downward trend. Honestly I would like to see more data points before crucifying Bolsonaro.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#79

Post by benj111 » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

davesmith1983 wrote: post #39

mda wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is the norm now, scientific truths are lies and conspiracy theories are the ultimate truth. All populist politicians are doing this and their followers love it.

Well a lot of this is due to how this has been presented to by the media beforehand. e.g. There is a scare story at least once a week that is plastered over newspapers/news sites such as " Having a bacon sandwich could lead to bum cancer!!!! ", when the headline is clearly salacious. The actual research probably had a sensible conclusion of "Those who have had consistently more red meat, have an increased chance of c…

The same newpapers that declare "Having a bacon sandwich could lead to bum cancer!!!!" Are also the ones most enamoured with Farage. So the readership is supposed to be disenfranchised over how they're lied to over the cancer scare stories but then believe the stories about how wonderful Farage is?

That said, I don't think I disagree with your greater point.

Re: Amazon deforestation: Brazil's Bolsonaro dismisses data as 'lies'

#80

Post by thatfrenchguy » Sat, Jul 20, 2019, 3:24 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #75

I see remarkable similarity in Bolsonaro's response on a national scale to nearly every American's response when choosing between making money and the environment. Suggest to an American to fly less and over 99% will say, "But my job. . ." as humans fly more than ever. Not to dwell on flying, we could talk of miles driven, plastic discarded, air conditioning empty rooms, eating more beef than ever. The scale is diffe…

> Suggest to an American to fly less and over 99% will say, "But my job. . ." as humans fly more than ever.

I see it as the reason why individual solutions will never work and why you need the government to step in to make sure those negatives externalities (aka killing the planet for our children) are properly priced in so that we subset those practices.