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Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

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Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#31

Post by Will_Parker »

mistrial9 wrote: post #6

in the 2007 time-frame, the US National Snow and Ice Science Center showed up en-masse in California and were flipping out about ice changes, semi-desperate to find some way to communicate to the public about it. Post-"Inconvenient Truth" and early days of Twitter, the idea that if "somehow, someway, people could know about this" things would get better faster, was the knee-jerk idea amongst people who were immersed…

The trouble is that if the "we" who are doing something does not include China and the rest of the world in coordination, then it is just sacrificing local economics in vain.

The idea that the rest of the world is going to follow suit automatically based only on morals is far from obvious.

It doesn't seem that anyone in the mainstream has really found a way to come to grips with this, that at its core any solution is a global coordination problem. (Even putting aside that half the US has found it more politically useful to deny the problem entirely.)

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#32

Post by saagarjha »

Will_Parker wrote: post #31
mistrial9 wrote: post #6

in the 2007 time-frame, the US National Snow and Ice Science Center showed up en-masse in California and were flipping out about ice changes, semi-desperate to find some way to communicate to the public about it. Post-"Inconvenient Truth" and early days of Twitter, the idea that if "somehow, someway, people could know about this" things would get better faster, was the knee-jerk idea amongst people who were immersed…

The trouble is that if the "we" who are doing something does not include China and the rest of the world in coordination, then it is just sacrificing local economics in vain. The idea that the rest of the world is going to follow suit automatically based only on morals is far from obvious. It doesn't seem that anyone in the mainstream has really found a way to come to grips with this, that at its core any solution is…

You not helping makes the problem worse, and you helping makes it better. I wouldn't call that work done in vain.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#33

Post by mempko »

klenwell wrote: post #29
munin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only thing you can do Don’t have kids.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It *melts off* like *an artic* shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself. h…

Beautiful. Love the changes.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#34

Post by pjkundert »

There is something that you can do.

Advocate that governments cut down on soot emissions.

This accounts for a significant portion of the current temperature rise in the Arctic -- but, most importantly -- an unknown amount of the loss of snow and ice cover.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-track-...

Unfortunately, this form of carbon (soot) is not as useful for funds transfer...

Between cutting down soot (all Chinese power plants could be outfitted with soot collectors in one year), and planting trees (which is the least expensive, most accessible option for sequestering carbon dioxide at planetary scale), we could actually start to impact arctic snow cover and permafrost within a couple of years, within a budgetary envelope that every developed country could easily manage.

But, once again -- unfortunately, neither of these options appear to be politically attractive, because the primary goal seems to be wealth transfer, not actual harm mitigation...

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#35

Post by wvenable »

Will_Parker wrote: post #31
mistrial9 wrote: post #6

in the 2007 time-frame, the US National Snow and Ice Science Center showed up en-masse in California and were flipping out about ice changes, semi-desperate to find some way to communicate to the public about it. Post-"Inconvenient Truth" and early days of Twitter, the idea that if "somehow, someway, people could know about this" things would get better faster, was the knee-jerk idea amongst people who were immersed…

The trouble is that if the "we" who are doing something does not include China and the rest of the world in coordination, then it is just sacrificing local economics in vain. The idea that the rest of the world is going to follow suit automatically based only on morals is far from obvious. It doesn't seem that anyone in the mainstream has really found a way to come to grips with this, that at its core any solution is…

That's what trade policy is supposed to be about. If the rest of world agrees to a particular standard you make that standard a condition of trade.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#36

Post by epistasis »

agumonkey wrote: post #26
sunshinelackof wrote: post #12

It's scary, but there's nothing I can do. We need approachingly authoritarian action on this issue by world leaders. They've had the data for decades. And the longer they wait, the more dramatic the changes to everything will be. Certainly economic freedoms taken for today will be a thing of legend (and possibly horror.)

It won't be effective rapidly but: - walk as much as possible - buy as less as possible (if the sales plummet, less sending products overseas I suppose) or local - plant trees

I'm in a lucky position where I can walk to work, bike for local shopping, buy an electric car for the few times that I go on trips, etc.

IMHO, the problem isn't as much individuals not choosing to do that, but a system that prevents these choices from ever being made.

Also, not all spending is equal; buying propane or gasoline or airline tickets are clearly worse than buying a share of community solar; or buying new insulation for your home, or building new high-density apartment buildings next to a train station.

I don't think that we will ever win over climate change by championing austerity; rather we need to champion change in the system, and that takes lots of spending.

Furthermore, we are now at a point that it's going to be absolutely necessary to start pulling CO2 out of the ocean or atmosphere and sequestering it. Without a whole bunch more prosperity and cheap energy, we will never be able to do that, so building a future with super cheap and abundant solar and wind energy is pretty much the only way I can imagine us avoiding > 2C climate change.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#37

Post by [deleted] »

adrianN wrote: post #27
Aloha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could just build fission power plants, they're reasonably safe, not too expensive and we know how to store the waste safely, heck - we've built a place to store it, but until there is political will to overcome the NIMBYism of not wanting to live in the next potential Pripyat (no matter how remote that risk is) nothing will change, except the climate of course.

We could also just build renewables.

[deleted]

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#38

Post by mempko »

epistasis wrote: post #22
sunshinelackof wrote: post #12

It's scary, but there's nothing I can do. We need approachingly authoritarian action on this issue by world leaders. They've had the data for decades. And the longer they wait, the more dramatic the changes to everything will be. Certainly economic freedoms taken for today will be a thing of legend (and possibly horror.)

Many big impacts are controlled at the local level: infill development, for example, is one of the best ways for the Bay Area to reduce its emissions. Statewide, 41% of California emissions come from transportation, more than any other source. https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/06/climate-chan... That is only going to change through local action, which means going to city council and planning meetings and b…

Reducing emissions isn't enough. ZERO emissions isn't enough.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#39

Post by Will_Parker »

munin wrote: post #21
ForHackernews wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do what ? Normal people can't do anything worthwhile. Unless you're in a position to personally bankroll the research and buildout of fusion power (hi, Jeff) the only thing you can do at this late date is get in the face of your government representatives: Jam up their phone lines, sit in at their offices, back primary challengers who will address the problem.

> the only thing you can do Don’t have kids.

So, breed a future full of inconsiderate people, I guess? If there's one best point thoughtful conservatives have, it's that for a sustainable planet, we need to value good people producing and raising the next generation.

The inability to understand this (ending in antinatalism at the extreme) is perhaps the root of my problems with the left side of politics. It's hard to get behind a side that is mathematically predestined to disappear completely.

Re: Arctic Summer Melt Shows Ice Is Disappearing Faster Than Normal

#40

Post by mempko »

FailMore wrote: post #4

If you're interested in following the latest climate change related news check out Paul Beckwith's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr546o7ImhGM57qoY0hHvkA He does 15 minute videos reviewing the latest papers and news. Headline: everything is happening faster than predicted. [I'm not affiliated with Paul in any way, I just like his videos.]

I second this. Paul Beckwith has a great of describing climate and he has deep knowledge about what he is talking about.
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