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Returning Due Process to Campus

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Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#21

Post by cheez »

leepowers wrote: post #9

It's a moral panic, at least in part. Panic explains why due process is ignored and why accusations are considered unassailable. But questioning accusations is not the same as denying them. And while reliving trauma is a risk it can be mitigated by using an intermediary like a lawyer or therapist. Another piece is the increasing insular nature of some institutions. Ideas ricochet within the walled gardens of higher e…

Glad to see that this type of thing is getting reversed. If you believe all accusations without the most basic of investigations, you are on the edge of a very slippery slope.

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight.

I had a friend who was the victim of a false allegation but he fought very hard and people lost their jobs over it because they didn't follow basic investigative procedures. In the end, he was out time, money and peace of mind because someone was vindictive - he wanted to break up with her. It of course helped that he was rich enough to fund a multi-pronged attack.

The woman received no repercussions.

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#22

Post by pmiller2 »

ultrarunner wrote: post #18
sverige wrote: post #3

Maybe someday we can find the middle ground between railroading undergrads with no evidence and taking decades to stop predators like Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby and probably countless others.

I wonder what the qualitative differences between Epstein/Cosby and college undergrads could be.

Do you really? You don’t know what the difference between rich and powerful men and a bunch of mostly no-name nobody young adults?

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#23

Post by ryacko »

sverige wrote: post #3

Maybe someday we can find the middle ground between railroading undergrads with no evidence and taking decades to stop predators like Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby and probably countless others.

Having a ruling class that is actually aligned with the interests of their lower classes?

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#24

Post by exolymph »

cascom wrote: post #12
jnwatson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is the abdication of most police forces and DAs to prosecute rape, date rape in particular. The university system fills the gap, sometimes poorly.

I’m not sure it’s an abdication - but rather the result of the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard being hard to overcome in a “he said she said” situation.

I'm sure that's part of it, but police departments have an atrocious record when it comes to investigating sexual assault: https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nati...

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#25

Post by 0-_-0 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #22
ultrarunner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what the qualitative differences between Epstein/Cosby and college undergrads could be.

Do you really? You don’t know what the difference between rich and powerful men and a bunch of mostly no-name nobody young adults?

I wonder what the qualitative differences between sarcasm and a genuine question could be.

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#26

Post by EliRivers »

cheez wrote: post #21
leepowers wrote: post #9

It's a moral panic, at least in part. Panic explains why due process is ignored and why accusations are considered unassailable. But questioning accusations is not the same as denying them. And while reliving trauma is a risk it can be mitigated by using an intermediary like a lawyer or therapist. Another piece is the increasing insular nature of some institutions. Ideas ricochet within the walled gardens of higher e…

Glad to see that this type of thing is getting reversed. If you believe all accusations without the most basic of investigations, you are on the edge of a very slippery slope. It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight. I had a friend who was the victim of a false allegation but…

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight.

I understand that the same can be true of people who are not lying or exaggerating. Every time we remember something, the memories change. I'd be surprised if someone managed the exact same story when questioned 5-6 different times.

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#27

Post by cheez »

EliRivers wrote: post #26
cheez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see that this type of thing is getting reversed. If you believe all accusations without the most basic of investigations, you are on the edge of a very slippery slope. It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight. I had a friend who was the victim of a false allegation but…

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight. I understand that the same can be true of people who are not lying or exaggerating. Every time we remember something, the memories change. I'd be surprised if someone managed the exact same story when questioned 5-6 different times.

That's why you don't talk to the cops, guilty or innocent

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#28

Post by deephony »

ultrarunner wrote: post #18
sverige wrote: post #3

Maybe someday we can find the middle ground between railroading undergrads with no evidence and taking decades to stop predators like Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby and probably countless others.

I wonder what the qualitative differences between Epstein/Cosby and college undergrads could be.

I think the point was that at one point Epstein and Cosby were as powerless as a railroadable undergrad. Dialing in the right false positive / false negative tradeoff us hard.

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#29

Post by baud147258 »

leepowers wrote: post #9

It's a moral panic, at least in part. Panic explains why due process is ignored and why accusations are considered unassailable. But questioning accusations is not the same as denying them. And while reliving trauma is a risk it can be mitigated by using an intermediary like a lawyer or therapist. Another piece is the increasing insular nature of some institutions. Ideas ricochet within the walled gardens of higher e…

Regarding the Atlantic article, which puts an important emphasis on DNA proof in case of sexual assault, it was ironic to see a article linked on that page, which critiqued the reliance on DNA proof in case of sexual assault (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/a-reaso...)

Re: Returning Due Process to Campus

#30

Post by dillonmckay »

barry-cotter wrote: post #6
dillonmckay wrote: post #2

At least public universities have some accountability to the law.

Any university that takes federal funds is amply exposed to the law of an administration wishes to so expose it.

However, a state university is also bound by the laws of the state, and are responsible to the voters at some basic level.
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