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The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

jeffgeerling.com

281–290 of 293 posts

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#281
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me try again. Assistant Professor of Physics here (not a grad student). Yes, reflectance of room temperature aluminum at those wavelengths is pretty good (not true for all metals BTW). Yes, this usually makes it hard to distinguish thermal radiation and reflected radiation with metals. What are you trying to say though? That whatever comes off from a metal must always be a reflection coming from somewhere else? >…

What are you trying to say though? In the first image in the linked article, the thermal camera picture has a scale at the bottom. On the scale shown white and red are hottest (66°C) and blue and black are coldest (23°C). The CPU is black (23°C), and the PCB directly adjacent to it is white (66°C). kees99 and klickverbot are saying it's unlikely the CPU is actually 23°C, especially given the author's statement the CP…

CPU is at 23C? Are we looking at the same image?

The CPU is the heat generator there, and is in contact with metallic regions around 60C (the red ring, if you compare to the real picture and follow the metallic bevels), where heat conductivity abruptly drops, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. Since the heat is generated by the CPU and flows to the metal casing and to the PCB, the CPU can't be lower than 60C.

I agree that the reading for the inner region of the metal casing (which is not the CPU) must be off, and it's probably because the emission intensity there isn't strong enough and the camera software is mixing the emission and reflection when inferring the temperature (which gives physically incorrect results because the spectrum won't obey Planck's law, but the error depends on how different the temperatures are, and gets much stronger as they drift apart) rather than doing something like a "dark frame" subtraction (which is doable in principle).

Accuracy concerns aside, though, everything we see there (when you consider the physical context) supports the fact that the metal casing helps spreading the heat (which is obvious, it's a material which high heat conductivity, and there wouldn't be any need to put it there otherwise).

Even the 60C reading must be off by some for the same reason (given the regions appearing at around 70C), of course, but I assume OP doesn't care about that level of accuracy.

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#282
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All portable laptops throttle. What we are vaguely talking about is a firmware bug in the 2018 MacBook Pro i9 that was patched within the first week of release. It's only a problem if throttling takes them below the advertised base clock under normal conditions. There is absolutely nothing deceptive about this. A gaming laptop is not really a laptop at all by comparison. They still get less than 4 hours of battery li…

> All portable laptops throttle. > It's only a problem if throttling takes them below the advertised base clock under normal conditions. Seems like a bit of a contradiction? Dell said that my laptop would have an i7-7700HQ at 2.8 GHz + turbo to 3.something, and a GTX 1050m. The laptop Dell sent me behaved like this under load: it goes to the max turbo speed, overheats within a few seconds to a minute, and then thrott…

[deleted]

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#283
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you trying to say though? In the first image in the linked article, the thermal camera picture has a scale at the bottom. On the scale shown white and red are hottest (66°C) and blue and black are coldest (23°C). The CPU is black (23°C), and the PCB directly adjacent to it is white (66°C). kees99 and klickverbot are saying it's unlikely the CPU is actually 23°C, especially given the author's statement the CP…

CPU is at 23C? Are we looking at the same image? The CPU is the heat generator there, and is in contact with metallic regions around 60C (the red ring, if you compare to the real picture and follow the metallic bevels), where heat conductivity abruptly drops, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. Since the heat is generated by the CPU and flows to the metal casing and to the PCB, the CPU can't be…

I agree it's true metal conducts heat better than plastic, and that a metal package is a conventional choice for that reason.

I disagree that the thermal image provides evidence of those truths

Does the image prove the CPU has a low temperature? No, the image reports the temperature inaccurately. Does the image prove the package has no hotspots? No, it wouldn't show hotspots if they were there. Does the fact the PCB gets hot tell us much? Not really, you'd expect heat to conduct from the package and balls to the PCB no matter what the package was made from.

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#284
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPU is at 23C? Are we looking at the same image? The CPU is the heat generator there, and is in contact with metallic regions around 60C (the red ring, if you compare to the real picture and follow the metallic bevels), where heat conductivity abruptly drops, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. Since the heat is generated by the CPU and flows to the metal casing and to the PCB, the CPU can't be…

I agree it's true metal conducts heat better than plastic, and that a metal package is a conventional choice for that reason. I disagree that the thermal image provides evidence of those truths Does the image prove the CPU has a low temperature? No, the image reports the temperature inaccurately. Does the image prove the package has no hotspots? No, it wouldn't show hotspots if they were there. Does the fact the PCB…

If that cap didn't spreading the heat as well, what you'd be seeing on the thermal camera would be something that glows around 60C-70C (because clearly, the camera's software can more or less resolve the room temperature reflection from 60C thermal radiation), and the color would be more or less uniform in the region above the CPU. There wouldn't be such a strong observed temperature gradient.

Which is the evidence you're looking for.

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#285
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a once-infrared-astronomer, I can certainly confirm your statement: Thermography is certainly not a straightforward "point-and-click" process. Six years of grad school...

Sounds like a cool profession, what are you up to nowadays?

Check out the Numberphile videos he's been in on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt5AfwLFPxWJeBhzCJ_JX...

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#286
post #272
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify here, all laptops of reasonably small size throttle. Throttling below base clock is the only problem, and it was only a temporary one that was patched out with new firmware on 2018 MacBook Pros.

I guess the reasonable size is relative. None of my laptops do this. The thermal design is basically broken if the CPU overheats and has to throttle to prevent a fire.

[deleted]

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll respectfully disagree. Running my Pi 4 with no fan/heatsink reduces performance to an absolute crawl. It's on par with the desktop on the original Pi released in 2012, i.e. nigh unusable for anything beyond saying "yep, it boots to desktop". Thermal throttling effectively neuters the device. I have it in an open-air acrylic "sandwich" style case now, with the same Pi-Fan as the author, and it feels performant en…

He said "no fan", why do you include "no heatsink" into that? Those are very different things to operate without.

The parent was claiming the Pi was designed with thermal throttling in mind so that no cooling solution was needed. I disagree based on my experience (I’ve owned at least one of every model B Pi since launch as well as three revisions of the Zero).

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, in most cameras the factors are in fact accounted for by setting the emissivity factor, a reflected apparent temperature, the distance to the object and the relative humidity. Thermography is certainly not an straightforward "point and click" process...

As a once-infrared-astronomer, I can certainly confirm your statement: Thermography is certainly not a straightforward "point-and-click" process. Six years of grad school...

Damn, are you the Cliff Stoll? I must say I thoroughly enjoyed your book back in the day. Upon reflection, it may have even affected my career (for the best).

Cheers!

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#289
post #146

This article is actually describing how the Raspberry Pi 4 does NOT need a fan. This is not the 1990s. It is perfectly acceptable and even advantageous to design for a high peak:normal load ratio, with thermal throttling. In this case, it allows for a compact, cheap, fanless design for the vast majority of users. There is no evidence the heat dissipated will impact lifespan. It is common for the components picked out…

I'll respectfully disagree. Running my Pi 4 with no fan/heatsink reduces performance to an absolute crawl. It's on par with the desktop on the original Pi released in 2012, i.e. nigh unusable for anything beyond saying "yep, it boots to desktop". Thermal throttling effectively neuters the device. I have it in an open-air acrylic "sandwich" style case now, with the same Pi-Fan as the author, and it feels performant en…

The assumption implied here is that the Raspberry Pi should deliver continuous peak performance equal to its burst performance.

If the RPi4 specs indicated a peak performance of 10% of burst performance, adding a fan would be a material alteration of the published thermal envelope of the purchased RPi4.

Was this performance characteristic clearly indicated at time of sale?

If so, then the article title, and the assumption above, is wrong: RPi4 does not need a fan, as long as it adheres to the published burst and continuous specs. Clearly there’s room in the thermal envelope for improved continuous performance with a fan, but that in no way is a “need” if they are transparent about this spec.

If not, then they are in good company with Apple and other compact hardware manufacturers in failing to publish their thermal envelope burst/continuous details in clear specifics. If they comply enough to say “min speed / burst speed” then they comply with what modern users generally expect in marketing documentation.

Does the RPi community wish further detail to be included at time of sale regarding thermal envelope behavior and timings at room temperature using the passive cooling case provided? If so, that’s a fair request to make of RPi and one they can easily comply with.

Re: The Raspberry Pi 4 needs a fan

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been running a I7-6700K on a 120mm AIO radiator for three years. It gets loud, but it also smashes my OC results. Personally, my biggest worry is the pump failing, and not the fans.

I used AIO for many computers, but every single system failed. It was the pump every time. I switched to a Noctua passive cooler that I've used throughout motherboard generations (Noctua always releases a cheap kit to attach it to the latest socket type) and it has never been a problem. Thermals aren't a lot worse; I used it on 200W TDP 10 core SKUs, and on normal consumer chips. It has never let me down. AIO seems l…

My AIO has been running fine- but I'm seriously considering a beefy heatsink next go-around.
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