America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#221

Post by fragmede » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:34 AM UTC

PKop wrote: post #136

magduf wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need "low rise cohousing communities" to have families in cities. Japanese cities are extremely dense, yet people raise families there just fine. On my trip to Japan, I was really struck by how many children I saw in the middles of cities (moreso in some districts than others, of course), whereas I never see children in downtown American cities. Of course, Japanese cities don't have enormous parking lots, e…

Because they have a high trust, homogenous culture. How many people feel comfortable taking children on public transportation or allowing to roam the middle of cities? Culture matters, and quite frankly Japanese culture is different.

At the worst, public transportation and city centers are biohazards (needles, urine, feces), with mentally-ill people (who are unable to get help) screaming at the top of their lungs. I'm not sure which is worse, when they're screaming at somebody, or when they're screaming at something we can't see.

There are various historical factors that have resulted in that abysmal situation in the US. Assigning it all to a four-word summary of Japanese culture is a bit reductive. The dangers in the city are different than they in the 80's, and they'll change again. The important part is to believe we can do better.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#222

Post by burfog » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:37 AM UTC

tempsy wrote: post #200

Such a bad take. The actual "elite" in urban centers are the ones walking around with strollers. Have a kid in the big city is the ultimate flex. No one else has kids because they can barely afford to live there themselves, let alone support a kid in it. Edit: Also, it's not as if the author failed to mention that it's expensive to raise families in the city. It's that he says "yes it's really expensive to raise kids…

The comment about "affluent childless" singles supports his earlier comment about cost of living.

The cost is high because those "affluent childless" singles are willing and able to pay more.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#223

Post by ajross » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:38 AM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #14

I look at it a little differently. The urban cores in the USA are actively hostile places for anyone to be. You step outside your door...into an empty hallway of doors. You take an elevator or stairs down to a place with a few mailboxes, then step outside. Outside, you have a narrow strip of concrete, possibly with a few trees, that you are allowed to inhabit. Beyond it is as asphalt with two ton steel contraptions w…

I'm sorry, but... have you actually lived in a city? Actually spent time in a public park? Dined at an urban restaurant? Actually been (???!?) unable to reach a public library? This sounds just crazy to me. Literally everything you do in the suburbs, absent long hikes and home gardening, is more conveniently available in an urban center. You don't have to like it, but... that list of complaints just reads as nonsense to anyone actually living in these places.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#224

Post by selectodude » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

volkl48 wrote: post #198

dhdidhdu wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you let your four year old take public transit in NYC by himself? Because they do that in Japan.

Maybe not a 4 year old, but NYC kids grow up way more independent than in many places in the US. Middle school kids taking public transit by themselves is pretty normal.

I was taking two busses to school every day at 12 year old just 15 years ago in Chicago. Today my mother would probably go to jail.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#225

Post by selectodude » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

pbourke wrote: post #215

asveikau wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> driving downtown This is your problem. In a city you don't need to put yourself and your family in a deadly metallic stress machine to get places. And as a result you will feel happier and more connected. Even in a city I am sometimes very shocked at what we put ourselves through to use a car. People constantly honking and flicking each other off with various insults and me on the sidewalk wishing they'd all calm d…

> deadly metallic stress machine A packed 4-5-6 line on a sweltering summer late afternoon can be a bit of a metallic stress machine. Not deadly, at least.

I think that’s a particular New York City issue.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#226

Post by eitally » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:47 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #181

rootusrootus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They must be so bored… Your preconceived notions of what suburban living is like are just as inaccurate as the perceptions of city life of the person you responded to.

I grew up in a suburb and was bored shitless. I had one friend that lived within walking distance, and everyone else was too far away to get to without a car, which meant that I didn't get to see my friends unless it was convenient for one of my two parents (who both held full-time jobs). Cycling anywhere outside of the local neighborhood was out of the question, since the roads connecting neighborhoods were full of…

There is an alternative. Don't live in a big city! There are plenty of 2nd & 3rd tier cities where you can get both a house and land for a reasonable price and still have good schools and a vibrant cultural environment. Of course you won't have some things (international airport, professional sports teams, top rate museums), but you'll make up for it in "free" QoL for your family.

I grew up in a city of 75,000, in a house currently worth about $150k (purchased new in 1976 by my parents for $38k and sold in 1993 for $120k), on 2.5 acres. It was about 30% lawn, gardens & sports area and 70% wooded (with a creek, even!). I only had 1-2 good neighborhood friends but I did have a younger brother & sister and we were constantly outside doing something.

I think you need to think about how you define "city" and "suburb" a little more.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#227

Post by pmart123 » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:48 AM UTC

silencio wrote: post #93

jacobolus wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried being a kid or raising a kid in the city? This description does not match my experience or my general impressions of other people’s experiences at all. Indeed, car-intermediated everything and complete dependence on parents is a much better description of suburban life for children than city life. I grew up in one of the most pleasant and active suburbs in the US, in a little college town, and it was s…

I am raising a 2.5 year old in SF and my experience is very similar to yours. We're looking at moving out to the East Bay soon to be closer to my parents, but SF - outside of housing - is not a bad place to be raising a child. So I have to tell my kid to ignore a syringe on the ground at a muni stop once in a while - like dangers don't also exist in suburban and rural areas - but poop barely phases us... it's like so…

Exposure isn’t a bad thing. Eventually, kids have to learn. Growing up first in the city and then in the adjacent suburb, I would say kids who grew up solely in the city were much more mature by the time they were 18. Many kids who grew up in the suburbs were “looking for the thrill” versus being cognizant of reality. Too often in the US, parents seems to try and shelter kids form near-term dangers at all costs versus giving them exposure to situations, and letting them learn from it and grow.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#228

Post by eitally » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

asveikau wrote: post #213

clay_the_ripper wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I currently live in SF and could not imagine having kids here. I’m sure some people do, and have a great time. But it’s not a life that I would want, nor would I want for my kids. This narrative captures pretty accurately why I would not want to raise kids in this city. Now, some other city? Maybe. Probably in Europe. US cities though are just hard places to be. Hard people. Aggressive homelessness. Dirty. Unfriendly…

I am not sure what part of town you are in. Can you open google maps and tell me how much "green space" you see? More than I grew up with. Hint, there is a rather large rectangular one on the west side of town. But I have noticed (and been criticized on HN for claiming) that the parenting cultural bubble in SF seems completely unknown to many other subcultures. It is indeed a very good community, though.

Sure, but good luck easily getting to Golden Gate Park if you're, say, coming from Mission Bay. And if you can afford to live in the hillier parts of town the odds are good you probably have decent (albeit small) neighborhood parks. The problem with SF is that the public schools suck, the streets in a lot of the "urban" parts are rife with squalor, and the city is a lot bigger than it looks when you're trying to get from one side to the other. I mean, if you live in the Outer Sunset you may as well be in a "suburb".... I think SF requires a pretty specific mentality for one to intentionally raise children there [for people of such means to be able to choose to stay or go].

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#229

Post by burfog » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 5:03 AM UTC

stouset wrote: post #181

rootusrootus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They must be so bored… Your preconceived notions of what suburban living is like are just as inaccurate as the perceptions of city life of the person you responded to.

I grew up in a suburb and was bored shitless. I had one friend that lived within walking distance, and everyone else was too far away to get to without a car, which meant that I didn't get to see my friends unless it was convenient for one of my two parents (who both held full-time jobs). Cycling anywhere outside of the local neighborhood was out of the question, since the roads connecting neighborhoods were full of…

I lived in that kind of place. I also had my one nearby friend.

We would ride our bicycles more than 5 miles along US-44. It has 2 lanes each side for a total of 4 lanes, 2-foot shoulders, and traffic that often got to a decent highway speed. There could be snow on the shoulder. One of the older bridges was narrow, with only about a half-foot shoulder. We went anyway.

We had similar woods. We went out there and built a fort. We camped. We misbehaved. We went to the railroad tracks and put coins on the rails. We hiked a mile to a lake, carrying an inflated raft and fishing or camping gear.

Don't blame the suburb if you chose to play video games. I hear that cities also have video games.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#230

Post by notzuck » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

jinushaun wrote: post #67

madhadron wrote: post #14

I look at it a little differently. The urban cores in the USA are actively hostile places for anyone to be. You step outside your door...into an empty hallway of doors. You take an elevator or stairs down to a place with a few mailboxes, then step outside. Outside, you have a narrow strip of concrete, possibly with a few trees, that you are allowed to inhabit. Beyond it is as asphalt with two ton steel contraptions w…

I’m raising a child in NYC right now. What is this dystopia you are describing? It’s the opposite of my personal experience. NYC is such a kid friendly place to raise kids: Museums, zoos, aquariums, free events for kids, concerts just for babies, parks, swimming pools, little league, soccer league, skate parks, etc… we have it all. I can’t fathom how people raise kids in the suburbs. They must be so bored… You have a…

We both earn large professional salaries but decided to go to the suburbs for kids. We have 2 beaches within 20 minutes of us, we have parks, cinemas, out door water parks, outdoor pools, skate parks plus half an acre of garden and a big house where the kids can have a music room, a playroom, separate room for computer games and we get a very nice home office. I don't know why anyone would want to stay in the cramped city making their kids live indoors.

We used to do apartment living, it sucked, especially when the neighbours kids started learning instruments.