America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#181

Post by stouset » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 2:54 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #94

jinushaun wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m raising a child in NYC right now. What is this dystopia you are describing? It’s the opposite of my personal experience. NYC is such a kid friendly place to raise kids: Museums, zoos, aquariums, free events for kids, concerts just for babies, parks, swimming pools, little league, soccer league, skate parks, etc… we have it all. I can’t fathom how people raise kids in the suburbs. They must be so bored… You have a…

> They must be so bored… Your preconceived notions of what suburban living is like are just as inaccurate as the perceptions of city life of the person you responded to.

I grew up in a suburb and was bored shitless. I had one friend that lived within walking distance, and everyone else was too far away to get to without a car, which meant that I didn't get to see my friends unless it was convenient for one of my two parents (who both held full-time jobs). Cycling anywhere outside of the local neighborhood was out of the question, since the roads connecting neighborhoods were full of fast-moving traffic and no bicycle lanes or pedestrian walkways.

There were "woods" between the endless maze of houses, but all of them were just parts of other people's property. And who was I going to play with in them, except for my one nearby friend?

I ended up just playing a lot of video games.

For all that urban centers are supposedly "hostile places" (according to the GP), I look at the adults and children I know in cities and I see mostly fit, healthy, active people with multiple hobbies and interests. I look at the adults and children I know in suburbs and I see overweight, sedentary people who spend so much of their life commuting between work, school, and home, that they barely have time for more than one day of a week of something fun like an organized sport. The rest is just spent at home watching TV or playing video games.

If I do decide have children, I definitely know what kind of place I want to do it in.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#182

Post by marnett » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 2:56 AM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #106

iron0013 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description doesn't really sound like any actual city that I know of, although it sounds a little like how someone who's never been to New York City might describe it. Do you have a particular city in mind? Because "car-centric and pedestrian hostile" sounds more like most suburbs than most urban areas.

I've lived in several cities including Boston and DC (and the urban cities that surround them both). It sounds like every wealthy city I've ever lived in or been to and sounds nothing like the 2nd tier cities that I've been to and now live in. When a city is wealthy it gets like the top level comment described. I don't know what it is but it's related to money. You can see this by comparing the wealther boroughs of N…

Consumer capitalism can not replace culture. I think that’s what your remarks about different bouroughs feeling alive was getting at.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#183

Post by abootstrapper » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

thrwayxyz wrote: post #152

rayiner wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not quite so simple. Both men and women state the ideal number of children they want to have as about 2.7: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/american-fertility... . Our society doesn’t just introduce more alternatives to having kids, it introduces more factors that get in the way or having kids. We’ve structured our society around this extended adolescence, where young people aren’t even really done with…

That sounds like a problem for women. Men can happily have children in their 70s as the current president has shown.

You may be surprised to learn, men need women to have children. If women are waiting later to have children, it doesn't mater how old the man is. Further, even if it were a problem only for women, that doesn't make the problem moot.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#184

Post by zachsnow » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #14

I look at it a little differently. The urban cores in the USA are actively hostile places for anyone to be. You step outside your door...into an empty hallway of doors. You take an elevator or stairs down to a place with a few mailboxes, then step outside. Outside, you have a narrow strip of concrete, possibly with a few trees, that you are allowed to inhabit. Beyond it is as asphalt with two ton steel contraptions w…

This feels like hyperbole. Instead of saying you are wrong objectively, I’ll say instead that my subjective experience of “the city” is in stark contrast to this. Green spaces and the ocean abound. My neighbors are wonderful people. The businesses around me are owned and operated by local people. I can’t walk down the block without running into good folks with smiles on their faces. I try to bring the same energy to my neighborhood. I couldn’t imagine not living here.

I think the city and the country and everywhere in between can be a wonderful or terrible place, but I would hesitate to say that any one place is right or wrong for any one person.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#185

Post by whymauri » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:01 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #179

Urban real estate is as small as the market allows and gradually shrinks as each iteration of smaller becomes normal. Nobody wants open offices or six hundred square foot apartments but zoning laws and the real estate economy are engineered to promote space per human trending towards zero. Who wants to raise a child like that. I grew up on more acres than some apartments I've lived in had square feet and the transiti…

>Nobody wants open offices or six hundred square foot apartments

Some people definitely want and enjoy these things.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#186

Post by munificent » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:02 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #4

> There are many reasons New York might be shrinking, but most of them come down to the same unavoidable fact: Raising a family in the city is just too hard. Harder than in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, up to 80s? Millions of dirt poor immigrants raised children in the city just fine, and tons of working and middle class people were born and raised there. I seriously doubt it's "too hard" in any other sense, except job/ren…

> Millions of dirt poor immigrants raised children in the city just fine, and tons of working and middle class people were born and raised there.

What choice did they have? Birth control wasn't widely available until the 60s.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#187

Post by abootstrapper » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

thrwayxyz wrote: post #175

rayiner wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except most men marry women who are about the same age. The gap in average age at first marriage is just two years, and has steadily decreased over the past century.

Yes, then for their second and third marriage they choose younger women. The average marriage lasts o my 8 years currently. Again this is a problem for women, not men.

Ok, this is just bad logic. Setting aside the actual figures. If "most women" are waiting until late in their life to have kids, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd wife you marry, regardless of your age, is waiting until later in life to have kids.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#188

Post by thrwayxyz » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

abootstrapper wrote: post #183

thrwayxyz wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a problem for women. Men can happily have children in their 70s as the current president has shown.

You may be surprised to learn, men need women to have children. If women are waiting later to have children, it doesn't mater how old the man is. Further, even if it were a problem only for women, that doesn't make the problem moot.

It's a problem for women over 30. If men merely have to delay reproduction by 40 years to their 70s you can quite easily kick the can down the road for the next generation to deal with. Given how much worse each next generation is doing this may well seem like a great deal in 2060 to the women who are born in 10 years time.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#189

Post by thrwayxyz » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:07 AM UTC

abootstrapper wrote: post #187

thrwayxyz wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, then for their second and third marriage they choose younger women. The average marriage lasts o my 8 years currently. Again this is a problem for women, not men.

Ok, this is just bad logic. Setting aside the actual figures. If "most women" are waiting until late in their life to have kids, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd wife you marry, regardless of your age, is waiting until later in life to have kids.

Most women today yes. Most women in 30 years? Depends on a lot of factors. Given how poor genz is at 20 to the next generation the stability of living in a one family house vs working a minimum wage clerical job could well be worth giving up the idea of a career.

Re: America’s urban rebirth is missing actual births

#190

Post by mrep » Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 3:09 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #66

madhadron wrote: post #14

I look at it a little differently. The urban cores in the USA are actively hostile places for anyone to be. You step outside your door...into an empty hallway of doors. You take an elevator or stairs down to a place with a few mailboxes, then step outside. Outside, you have a narrow strip of concrete, possibly with a few trees, that you are allowed to inhabit. Beyond it is as asphalt with two ton steel contraptions w…

Have you tried being a kid or raising a kid in the city? This description does not match my experience or my general impressions of other people’s experiences at all. Indeed, car-intermediated everything and complete dependence on parents is a much better description of suburban life for children than city life. I grew up in one of the most pleasant and active suburbs in the US, in a little college town, and it was s…

> more small shops of all kinds, more coffeeshops, more live music, more social clubs, more classes, more playgrounds, more museums

Suburban playgrounds are way better than urban ones and the rest of your examples require a lot of money. I'm biased because I grew up in the suburbs, but playing sports outside for free like I did as a kid sounds much better than having to get job because the only thing you can do in the city outside of your house is pay for "culture" at "coffeeshops, more live music, more social clubs, more classes, more museums".