What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community • Hacker News Board

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#71

Post by celticmusic » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #6

Here's my Stack Overflow user hostile experience. I asked a question as to _why_ some very well-used and robust database implementations, as a matter of "principle", don't have auto-increment fields. There must be a reason for it, like it violates the purity of a relational database, etc., but I'm not sure how or why. This question was quickly edited/changed by someone else to "How do you do AUTO_INCREMENT in Oracle"…

I had a similar experience, I asked a question. It then immediately got moved to a different stack overflow site where it was promptly closed as not relevant. Which is correct, it wasn't relevant to the site it had been moved to, but was relevant to the one I had posted it to.

I still sometimes post questions in the hopes of an answer, but 99% of the time the question is too subtle for the site and I either get no answer, or answers to a question I didn't ask.

Personally, I don't like SO and I'm not convinced we're better off having it around.

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#72

Post by celticmusic » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

airstrike wrote: post #10

olooney wrote: post #7

It's hilarious how self aware they are about the newbie experience[1] while at the same time having engineered an system that reinforces and enables all of those behaviors. Stack Overflow doesn't care about helping users get answers to their questions; they care about creating a Google-indexed repository of high-quality questions and answers. These two aren't the same because of the concept of a "high" or "low" quali…

> Stack Overflow doesn't care about helping users get answers to their questions; they care about creating a Google-indexed repository of high-quality questions and answers. I'll add that experienced Stack Overflow users don't care about helping other users. They care about badges and reputation, which is a proxy for helping users but not quite the same. So to me it's more like a wiki with a pseudo-Q&A gimmick with a…

I came across an article recently about Joel Spolsky believing there was no gamification in SO and then realizing there 'was a little'.

Which is 100% disingenuous, when Jeff Atwood was first working on SO, gamification was high on his list of things he wanted to do, and it's been a part of SO since day 1.

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#73

Post by chx » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #57

pkteison wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you're still curious, I think the reason it isn't included is because auto-increment is a hard problem to do right, ends up being a leaky abstraction for technical reasons, causes bugs, and is philosophically sub-optimal for basically any use case you can dream up. Want to order? Dates are probably always a better thing to order by, or else some natural property of the data like name or title. Want to link tw…

Thanks! I also realize that if you have distributed database nodes, it's becomes a very hard problem to have a monotonically incrementing id. But still, mysql/mariadb does it, and so does Microsoft SQL Server (via IDENTITY)

MySQL sort of cheats (but it's a good cheat!) by auto_increment_increment/offset which is means as long as you have a fixed amount of nodes , you are good, server #1 uses 1,4,7 etc #2 uses 2,5,8 etc and #3 uses 3,6,9 .. adding a node requires reconfiguring (but not restarting) all nodes.

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#74

Post by contras1970 » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 8:09 PM UTC

closetohome wrote: post #15

xigency wrote: post #12

One big problem as a Stack Overflow viewer who comes from Google is that many times the top result for a search leads to a question/answer that is a dead end. The question is valid but it is closed because it was asked on the wrong website (Stack Overflow vs. Stack Exchange), it's too subjective, it's a duplicate, etc. Or the question is downvoted and there are no useful answers. Another issue which comes about from…

My favorite is the recursive "just google this" answer in a thread that's the top search result on Google.

that's not accepted as a good answer on SO. do you have any examples?

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#75

Post by eitland » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

xigency wrote: post #47

eitland wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might instead ask, "What are the key differences between MySQL and SQLite" which can then provide the insight to answer your original question as well as help other users. I'm pretty sure if you ask that exact question, an even if nobody has asked it before so it isn't a duplicate, someone will find some reason to shoot it down.

Even worse, it was obliterated: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3630/sqlite-vs-mysql And the reason: closed as not constructive by Kev Feb 28 '13 at 13:12

I cannot even see it :-/

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#76

Post by pugworthy » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

oauea wrote: post #43

mushufasa wrote: post #41

There totally are good examples ui/ux designs that minimize the emotional impact of negative feedback. Stack Overflow might take a page from dating apps. Imagine if Tinder told you all the hot people that rejected you! That's kindof where SO is now. Instead, Tinder takes a terrible experience (rejection), hides it, and only shows you the great experiences (acceptance). The main constraint to work around is that, curr…

Then how would you ever learn? I don't know if you've ever spent time looking for questions to answer on SO. Before weighing in on the climate, please do so. You'll encounter an absolutely shocking amount of utterly stupid questions. Yes, I know, stupid questions supposedly don't exist. Judge for yourself after spending an hour looking at the new queue for PHP and JavasScript questions. Once you've done this, and sti…

Down votes mean nothing - they are simply someone saying, "WRONG!" with no explanation of why. As such there is really not much of an opportunity to learn. Well, beyond not coming back.

Imagine though if they had some kind of coaching system based on down votes. If you get no response or get negative on your early posts, you get a private (automated) message with helpful tips. Better yet, you get a link to a SO question that goes something like, "My question is not getting any answers, what can I do to improve it?" or "My question got down voted a lot, what can I do to improve it?"

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#77

Post by pugworthy » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #35

dlphn___xyz wrote: post #25

HN is far more hostile than stack overflow :)

I think that's hyperbolic. I find HN to be slightly more forgiving. However, it does surprise me how hostile HN can be to a bit of humor.

Yes. Also, you don't always see people asking, "Hey I don't quite understand what you mean with this comment - can you clarify?" Instead there's a tendency to just down vote.

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#78

Post by airstrike » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

indigochill wrote: post #23

airstrike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stack Overflow doesn't care about helping users get answers to their questions; they care about creating a Google-indexed repository of high-quality questions and answers. I'll add that experienced Stack Overflow users don't care about helping other users. They care about badges and reputation, which is a proxy for helping users but not quite the same. So to me it's more like a wiki with a pseudo-Q&A gimmick with a…

>even if that means telling someone that their question is stupid – which means breaking a rule that is essentially the cornerstone of any other Q&A setting. Although I'm sure that happens, the site is explicitly designed to be a pseudo-wiki (Jeff counted Wikipedia as one of its inspirations), so if you ask a question that's too specific to your use case (i.e. that other users will not be able to put into practice) o…

> For example, if you asked, "Should I use MySQL or SQLite", that's not a great question for Stack Overflow. You might instead ask, "What are the key differences between MySQL and SQLite"

That's just really the same question rephrased. If you think the latter shouldn't be closed, then just edit the former to read like it and leave it open.

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#79

Post by dang » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #6

Here's my Stack Overflow user hostile experience. I asked a question as to _why_ some very well-used and robust database implementations, as a matter of "principle", don't have auto-increment fields. There must be a reason for it, like it violates the purity of a relational database, etc., but I'm not sure how or why. This question was quickly edited/changed by someone else to "How do you do AUTO_INCREMENT in Oracle"…

> I asked a question as to _why_ some very well-used and robust database implementations, as a matter of "principle", don't have auto-increment fields. There must be a reason for it, like it violates the purity of a relational database, etc., but I'm not sure how or why

That sort of curiosity makes for a good Ask HN post. Maybe give that a try next time? https://news.ycombinator.com/ask

(For anyone who doesn't know, those are just text posts. It's conventional to put "Ask HN: " at the head of the title if you're asking a question, "Tell HN: " if you're telling rather than asking.)

Re: What a bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community

#80

Post by leepowers » Thu, Jul 18, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

One issue is moderation vs answering. Users interested in moderating questions are more prominent than users looking to actually answer questions.

1) Grace period. For new questions (and especially for new users) - add a grace period where the downvoting, closing questions, and voting to close are all prohibited. Could be 4 to 24 hours - some optimal window where questioners can read comments, clarify their question, add/revise code examples, etc. Getting downvoted or closed is an extremely toxic experience and tends to position the well for all questioners, be they newbies or veterans.

2) As an answerer I also need a way to watch a question and see if it improves over time. So when I provide feedback in a comment, or flag/watch a question, I need a historical view of all my threads.

Right now the experience is upvote or downvote right away, proffer an answer right away, vote to close or otherwise flag right away; there's too much immediacy in the interface. It feels like a churn. And churn is a game that appeals to rule enforcers (moderators).

3) Chat. A bad question may be intrinsically bad - incoherent and confused and unanswerable by anyone. Or a question may be bad in context.

SO is like email. It's asynchronous and creates a conversation history. In this context a good question is direct, concise, and descriptive.

Many questioners approach SO like it was a chat. They need to ask several small questions before they can formulate a real question. They need an informal conversation (chat) to set up a well structured, intelligible question (email). Many users are looking for help through the whole process: exploration > formulation > resolution. SO is optimized for the last step and ruthlessly moderates out the antecedent steps.

SO already has a chat at https://chat.stackoverflow.com/ - but usage seems sparse. Instead of "vote to close" being the only option for bad questions, maybe recategorize them instead. "Send to chat" or "Request for comments" to flag a question that needs help getting to an answerable state.