The simple fact is that the larger Python community never really cared for repoze.bfg and TurboGears. The Pylons, BFG and TurboGears teams joining forces feels more like a last, somewhat desparate move to garner some attention for projects that never reached critical mass. I don't think it'll change much of anything. I used to do development in Pylons and I've tried my hand at Pyramid, and there's simply nothing to g…
I've been steeped in Pylons for several years now. I agree that Pylons has nothing to get excited about. However, (and this is the important part) it provided really straightforward glue to integrate a few other things that are definitely worth getting excited about: SQLAlchemy, Mako/Jinja, Routes, Beaker, and Paste. Pylons' past philosophy always seemed to be "we'll take the best-in-breed of python web software and…
TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
21–30 of 42 posts
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#22The simple fact is that the larger Python community never really cared for repoze.bfg and TurboGears. The Pylons, BFG and TurboGears teams joining forces feels more like a last, somewhat desparate move to garner some attention for projects that never reached critical mass. I don't think it'll change much of anything. I used to do development in Pylons and I've tried my hand at Pyramid, and there's simply nothing to g…
As the author, I'm interested in improving the Pyramid docs. Can you elaborate on your issues with them? Did you notice the tutorials at http://docs.pylonshq.com/pyramid/dev/index.html#tutorials (lots of people seem to miss them).
Hi Chris. Off the top of my head, from when I was working on a Pyramid app ~ a month ago:
- No clear visual distinction between links to glossary terms and links to further documentation. I like the glossary, but always ended up there without wanting to.
- I did find the tutorials, no issue there. (Only that the paster templates are a bit awkwardly named, but that's not a doc issue.)
- Especially the former BFG stuff, I'm thinking specifically about traversal, is explained in a way that probably makes a ton of sense to Zopeheads, but, at the time anyway, read more like a PhD thesis than like documentation.
- Again not strictly a documentation issue, but the fact that you can configure and use Pyramid in a ton of different ways means there's no straight path from getting started to actually getting something up and running, even with the tutorials. Not being opinionated about anything simply makes it very difficult to write good, forceful docs.
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#23The simple fact is that the larger Python community never really cared for repoze.bfg and TurboGears. The Pylons, BFG and TurboGears teams joining forces feels more like a last, somewhat desparate move to garner some attention for projects that never reached critical mass. I don't think it'll change much of anything. I used to do development in Pylons and I've tried my hand at Pyramid, and there's simply nothing to g…
I've been steeped in Pylons for several years now. I agree that Pylons has nothing to get excited about. However, (and this is the important part) it provided really straightforward glue to integrate a few other things that are definitely worth getting excited about: SQLAlchemy, Mako/Jinja, Routes, Beaker, and Paste. Pylons' past philosophy always seemed to be "we'll take the best-in-breed of python web software and…
Yep, nothing but love for SQLAlchemy, Jinja, Routes and Beaker. But even given those components, it's still a hard sell.
Reminds me of this blogpost from a while back: http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/03/15/jinja2-and-djan...
"In the beginning, there was Django, and it was good. But gradually we began to find its paradigms counterintuitive: we disliked the idea of apps and considered the built-in template language pretty crippled. More importantly, we prefer the epically powerful SQLAlchemy to Django’s ORM of Doom, so with the evidence before us, we switched to Pylons and the haven of SQLAlchemy/Jinja, only to discover we had switched from a shitty apartment in Brooklyn to a tent in the desert. No cockroaches, true, but no running water, either. Who really wants to write a thumbnail library? (Apologies to anyone who has actually written a thumbnail library)"
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
As the author, I'm interested in improving the Pyramid docs. Can you elaborate on your issues with them? Did you notice the tutorials at http://docs.pylonshq.com/pyramid/dev/index.html#tutorials (lots of people seem to miss them).
Hi Chris. Off the top of my head, from when I was working on a Pyramid app ~ a month ago: - No clear visual distinction between links to glossary terms and links to further documentation. I like the glossary, but always ended up there without wanting to. - I did find the tutorials, no issue there. (Only that the paster templates are a bit awkwardly named, but that's not a doc issue.) - Especially the former BFG stuff…
"No clear visual distinction between links to glossary terms": yep, fixed a while back. Glossary terms are now green, other links are blue.
Traversal explaining: we're working on it (really). The docs have been rearranged and massaged a good bit, and they're being futher (professionally) edited now.
Flexibility: the best I can do about that without betraying the goals of the project is http://docs.pylonshq.com/pyramid/dev/designdefense.html#pyra... . I'm also working on a cookbook here: https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid_cookbook which should provide the tl;dr'ers with a way to perform common tasks without needing to read didactic explanations.
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#25Wow, I'm thoroughly confused as to which way to go with Python and web frameworks now. We do a fair bit of Python work, primarily for back-end processing (our main work is still in PHP) and we've been trying to move more to Python. I did a LOAD of research into frameworks and had chosen to go with Pylons, and then I saw that they were becoming Pyramid. This announcement obviously means three of them are merging together, but it does make me a bit nervous. I want to stick with Python, because I love it, but this is all making my head hurt a little!!! Anyone on here done a load of research/experimentation already and care to help me make some decisions :) ?
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#26Wow, I'm thoroughly confused as to which way to go with Python and web frameworks now. We do a fair bit of Python work, primarily for back-end processing (our main work is still in PHP) and we've been trying to move more to Python. I did a LOAD of research into frameworks and had chosen to go with Pylons, and then I saw that they were becoming Pyramid. This announcement obviously means three of them are merging toget…
Considering the three principals of three (previously-separate) systems are congregating around one (Pyramid), doesn't it make your decision a little easier rather than harder?
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#27Wow, I'm thoroughly confused as to which way to go with Python and web frameworks now. We do a fair bit of Python work, primarily for back-end processing (our main work is still in PHP) and we've been trying to move more to Python. I did a LOAD of research into frameworks and had chosen to go with Pylons, and then I saw that they were becoming Pyramid. This announcement obviously means three of them are merging toget…
Considering the three principals of three (previously-separate) systems are congregating around one (Pyramid), doesn't it make your decision a little easier rather than harder?
I know on the surface that it does, but Pyramid isn't ready for production as yet. Also, the secondary issue for me is that I had made a choice to go with Pylons, but that has effectively been abandoned (sorry for the strong word as I appreciate it will be 'maintained' but will never move forward from where it is, and my concern is that after investing considerable time/energy into our project that the same thing could happen. Thanks though - I appreciate that in some respects it does seem an easier choice. I suppose thats where RoR works - they have one main framework to choose from (and a good one) whereas with Python there are a lot.
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Considering the three principals of three (previously-separate) systems are congregating around one (Pyramid), doesn't it make your decision a little easier rather than harder?
I know on the surface that it does, but Pyramid isn't ready for production as yet. Also, the secondary issue for me is that I had made a choice to go with Pylons, but that has effectively been abandoned (sorry for the strong word as I appreciate it will be 'maintained' but will never move forward from where it is, and my concern is that after investing considerable time/energy into our project that the same thing cou…
Remember the bulk of Pyramid is repoze.bfg - which is 1.5+ years old and has 100% test coverage.
Pylons really hadn't had anything other than bugfixes in quite some time, and had some problems with stacked object proxies which would have required a fairly substantial rewrite. Whether you consider Pylons dead or just simply finished is a matter of semantics. I still think Pylons is an extremely capable platform and I don't think you should be afraid to touch it. There is still plenty of mindshare around for Pylons.
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Considering the three principals of three (previously-separate) systems are congregating around one (Pyramid), doesn't it make your decision a little easier rather than harder?
I know on the surface that it does, but Pyramid isn't ready for production as yet. Also, the secondary issue for me is that I had made a choice to go with Pylons, but that has effectively been abandoned (sorry for the strong word as I appreciate it will be 'maintained' but will never move forward from where it is, and my concern is that after investing considerable time/energy into our project that the same thing cou…
Pyramid 1.0 final will be out before PyCon US (~ 2 months from now).
However, it bears saying that, so far, no alpha release of Pyramid has been bw incompat with the last in any way. As a result, I wouldn't be scared off much by "alpha" in its version designator, at least as an evaluator. The code in Pyramid has existed for almost 2 years now. Every release has 100% statement coverage via unit tests. An alpha of Pyramid is arguably much more stable than many "final" releases of other web frameworks.
Re: TurboGears joins the Pylons Project
#30Wow, I'm thoroughly confused as to which way to go with Python and web frameworks now. We do a fair bit of Python work, primarily for back-end processing (our main work is still in PHP) and we've been trying to move more to Python. I did a LOAD of research into frameworks and had chosen to go with Pylons, and then I saw that they were becoming Pyramid. This announcement obviously means three of them are merging toget…
I came to the same conclusion that I wanted to try out Pylons a few weeks ago right around the same time the repoze.bfg + Pylons merger was announced and just decided to jump into Pyramid. Recently I've been really impressed with the flexibility the platform offers allowing me to use all the libraries I had planned on and to make design decisions that I'm comfortable with. Initially there was quite a big learning curve as I was unfamiliar with using paste, what traversal was and if I should use it, best method to configure my app, etc... Initially this was my only real criticism, the level of indecision this flexibility instills in a noob, but since then the devs have been actively working on the docs to make them more beginner friendly and I've gotten some really great help in the irc channel. I'd say it's definitely worth taking a look if you were interested in Pylons.