Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having a company culture where _everyone_ feels safe enough to speak up and being heard (instead of getting kicked out) is not democracy. It is smart and crucial, in my opinion. I am surprised that critizing something at a company equals being a trouble maker to you.
I am sure James Damore also wanted that. They went even further with him and outright fired him and shamed him.
Google Protest Leader Leaves
391–400 of 442 posts
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
So is the insinuation here that if she doesn't meet some arbitrary series of qualifications you put forth, it's okay for her to be illegally harassed out of her job? I'm reluctant to engage further because it seems like an absurd line of reasoning.
Nope, you've made yourself a straw man. I hope you did not do it intentionally because it's plainly disgusting. Please don't do that again. You've said that she didn't just leave Google instead of protesting because she didn't 'want to see the thing you [she] worked so hard to build misused to build killer robots and "war minds"'. You was asked what she actually did at Google and you've come up with 'her work on AI e…
This looks like you've subtly dodged the complaint I raised by trying to insinuate that she doesn't have a right to express opinions aboht functions of Google she herself did not personally participate in. This leverages the information asymmetry in disclosure; we can't publicly discuss the bulk of her work and therefore you can suggest that there was none.
I find this to be no different from suggesting that she has no right to protest and therefore deserves to be run out. You're just trying to run the standard "she wasn't that important and therefore doesn't have credibility" playbook. Gross.
But despite the disingenuous argument, I'll accept it head on. I challenge the entire premise. I certainly can and do express opinions about my employer's involvement in weapons development and I am glad they are not doing it. I'd fight to avoid doing any more of it, and I'd be willing to resign over it. I don't work in AI, but my work supports any such system at Google and therefore I'd feel responsible to help prevent building killer robots in any capacity.
I, like many such employees, am both a shareholder and an employee in a company that claims to have an interest in a transparent and egalitarian corporate culture. This practice will naturally introduce friction between different parties and I expect us to work through them as fairly as possible. So I will not simply eject at the first sign of something I don't like. But if I feel that there is a line crossed while I was there strenuously objecting to that line and I haven't been given adequate reason to change my mind, I won't hesitate to resign.
I make these facts clear to folks when they hire me. If they don't like it, they shouldn't hire me. Hopefully you respect your own agency and intellect enough to give yourself similar license in your own life.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I think my coworker is disagreeable and is preventing me from being productive and my coworker disagrees, am I "defining his/her identity"? That language seems very odd to me. What's the difference between "defining someone's identity" and "having an opinion about someone that is contrary to how they view themselves"? More broadly, you seem to be saying that the only reason anyone is skeptical of the Google protes…
That language seems very odd to me. What's the difference between "defining someone's identity" and "having an opinion about someone that is contrary to how they view themselves"? The difference is that once you establish that it's "defining someone's identity", then disagreement with that person is "denying their right to exist", and so basically violence, from which the person you disagreed with deserve protection.…
Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe this.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
That language seems very odd to me. What's the difference between "defining someone's identity" and "having an opinion about someone that is contrary to how they view themselves"? The difference is that once you establish that it's "defining someone's identity", then disagreement with that person is "denying their right to exist", and so basically violence, from which the person you disagreed with deserve protection.…
> once you establish that it's "defining someone's identity", then disagreement with that person is "denying their right to exist", and so basically violence Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe this.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#395Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nope, you've made yourself a straw man. I hope you did not do it intentionally because it's plainly disgusting. Please don't do that again. You've said that she didn't just leave Google instead of protesting because she didn't 'want to see the thing you [she] worked so hard to build misused to build killer robots and "war minds"'. You was asked what she actually did at Google and you've come up with 'her work on AI e…
> Looks like she was not working 'so hard' on anything that can be of any use for building 'killer robots and war "minds"'. In fact, for building anything. This looks like you've subtly dodged the complaint I raised by trying to insinuate that she doesn't have a right to express opinions aboht functions of Google she herself did not personally participate in. This leverages the information asymmetry in disclosure; we…
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
> once you establish that it's "defining someone's identity", then disagreement with that person is "denying their right to exist", and so basically violence Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe this.
Yes, this is absurd, but I've seen this play out over and over again right in front of my eyes at Google.
The tech echo-chamber is fostering unrealistic opinions about life and liberty.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#397Earlier quoted context omitted.
We just asked you yesterday to stop taking HN threads further into flamewar. We ban accounts that do that. We have to, because doing that destroys the curiosity this site exists for. Would you please review the site guidelines and take the spirit of this site more to heart when posting here? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I want to understand this fully. You care more about me pointing out the obvious political context we live in than about the person downthread literally comparing being gay to pedophilia. Will you, in your capacity as a moderator for one of the most influential forums on the internet, actively care about justice, or will you just protect the status quo? Pick a side. (Keep in mind that Scott Alexander made the exact s…
We're not trying to be neutral in the sense you describe. I agree that it's impossible, that everything is ultimately political or at least connected to politics by one or two hops, and so on. But this is a hard problem with no easy answers—actually with no answers. I certainly don't have one. The answer you're offering is not an answer, because picking a side and banning the other side would explode this community. It isn't just people on the banned side who would oppose such an approach; most HN users on all sides would. The rift would kill the community. What good would that do?
Another reason is that political issues are more important than most of what appears on HN. Justice is more important than Rust. Does it follow that no website dedicated to less important things has a right to exist? I don't think so. I think it's ok to have a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity, even though justice is more important than Rust. It's fine if you disagree, but then it would be good to make clear that that is what you disagree with. So far I don't think I've ever heard anyone come out and say so. But if you do agree that it's ok to have a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity, I think I can argue confidently that the approach we take as moderators follows from that.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are completely in your rights to get together with your fellow employees - or anyone else - to do anything you want. And others are entitled not to pay you to do things they don't want you to do. Nobody is forced to do things they don't want. Nobody is forced to pay money to others. But employment is an agreement between people. The employer agrees to pay, and the other agrees to follow directions of the employer…
The value created by employees rightfully belongs to employees and should be created on their terms. It isn't employees who are hired by managers, it's managers who are hired by employees to manage and sell the things they create. Employees ought to have the right to dictate the terms that their managers are being hired on.
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to know weird subsets of people at different companies. If we weren't ostensibly in the same field, I wouldn't comment (because of course two random people on HN would know different people at Google). But we are, and the Google security people I talk to are more supportive of the protests; several are now on the job market because of it. I feel pretty comfortable with how representative the people I talk to…
Yes, it’s definitely me that knows “weird subsets” of people, whatever that is supposed to mean. You’re immune to bubbles, and I am in one, right? Or is that a sneaky way of saying, “The people I know don’t think that, so I suspect you made that up”? This is a silly thread, but for what it’s worth, I have not talked to anyone at Google in a security role about this issue. I’ll be more blunt. I am highly skeptical tha…
Re: Google Protest Leader Leaves
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're the one paying for the work, you're entitled to say what the work will be. In this case 'you' is Google shareholders, through their representatives. Nobody is entitled to be paid to do what they choose. If you want to do something for your own personal reasons, do it off the clock.
There's no good reason to think like this. If you're the one doing the work, you're entitled to say collectively with your fellow employees what it should be.