Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#391

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #351

rayiner wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism has been a miracle for everyone, not just a few. It’s true that inequality has increased over the last 30 years: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/bangladesh/income-distribut... . The income share of the top 10% has grown from 22% to 28%. And the share of the bottom 20% has dropped from 10% to 8%. But 8% of a number that’s 6x bigger is way better than 10% of a number that’s 1/6 the size.

Focusing at the bottom end, a 20% wealth hit is a really big problem for poor people. And just because they're well-off compared to other countries or previous periods in history is meaningless if they have solvency issues in the present. Being flat broke in our advanced technological society is a serious hardship and can not be measured in simplistic absolutes.

10% of $1000 is $100.

22% of $1000 is $220.

8% of $6000 is $480.

28% of $6000 is $1680.

$480 > $100.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#392

Post by vkou » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #329

dymk wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you employ hundreds of thousands of people, it’s not hard to find hundreds who are incredibly unhappy. Sure, this only represents 0.1% of their workforce, but news agencies don’t care about that. People just want something to be angry about. They’ll continue to ignore that $15/hour is within “living wage” for the low CoL areas that Amazon fulfillment warehouses are located in.

This reminds me of the Foxconn suicides. Lots of press made it sound like a major problem, but the actual rate was lower than both China and US averages.

The averages include non-functioning alcoholics, drug addicts, retirees with no money to live on, who don't want to be a burden on their children, chronic gamblers, people in serious debt, people who are terminally ill, people who are too depressed to hold down a job, veterans with PTSD...

In short, not the same demographics as people holding down 'decent' jobs for the area.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#393

Post by patio11 » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #391

anigbrowl wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focusing at the bottom end, a 20% wealth hit is a really big problem for poor people. And just because they're well-off compared to other countries or previous periods in history is meaningless if they have solvency issues in the present. Being flat broke in our advanced technological society is a serious hardship and can not be measured in simplistic absolutes.

10% of $1000 is $100. 22% of $1000 is $220. 8% of $6000 is $480. 28% of $6000 is $1680. $480 > $100.

There's also a Rawls-esque thought experiment, which is "What rough archetype of a person/family would be better served by being teleported back to pre-capitalism if they got their ~current status in the old order, and everything that comes with it?"

This is a really brutally difficult game to play in a developing nation because one of capitalism's achievements is "Half your children don't die." (In the last 30 years in Bangladesh early childhood mortality is down ~14% to 3%.)

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#394

Post by LanceH » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #369

LanceH wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument would be that they are rational actors and are choosing to be better off when they choose the job.

That's the homo-economicus argument and it's fallen flat a great many times. Humans act irrationally all the time.

It's humans that would be enacting regulations, too. With market pricing, the people involved are responsible for their own irrational behavior.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#395

Post by pwinnski » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

pardavis wrote: post #37

dhruvrrp wrote: post #17

> He says he has to pick an item about every eight seconds, or 332 per hour, for a 10 hour day. Ignoring the math, it’s hard to imagine that pace. Are they forced to continually be moving? Or is the person counting picking up, say 15 usb chargers as 15 separate things?

Pick workers at robotized FCs stand in one place at the nexus point of conveyors and robots. Robots bring them shelving units of products. Conveyor belts bring them empty containers. The human selects products from the robot and puts it in the container.

If they're going to do that much automation, they might as well have the robot put the product in the container.

Which they do. Amazon has both human and robot pickers.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#396

Post by mikeash » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #388

mikeash wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because they will lose money, since their margins are already very slim now with at their current labor cost.

I am saying that they could use some of their approximately $10^10 yearly profits to pay people better.

How would that cause them to lose money?

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#397

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #396

tptacek wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they will lose money, since their margins are already very slim now with at their current labor cost.

I am saying that they could use some of their approximately $10^10 yearly profits to pay people better. How would that cause them to lose money?

They could indeed use their other businesses to fund running their retail/fulfillment business at a loss. But at that point it would be just as rational to jettison those businesses (by spinning them off into another company), and now we're a step behind square one: they lose whatever economies they get from being a single company, their cost basis gets worse, and they're in an even poorer position to pay more.

These are descriptive, not normative, observations.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#398

Post by _bfhp » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #373

_khau wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism has been a miracle for everyone, not just a few. Capitalism has had demonstrably terrible effects for many people all over the world without the luck of being born in a country or even a social class with enough economic clout to dictate favourable terms in trade agreements. The conflict and genocide in East Timor was driven by capitalist Indonesia (a US ally) and colonial greed. Of course this conflict…

Your examples are terrible. East Timor is a classic case of conflict based on language and religion (Indonesia is Muslim, East Timor is Portuguese-speaking and Catholic.) Your water example involves a private company being forced to raise rates to pay for a dam that it was forced to build as part of a government I funded mandate.

The "language and religion" bit bugs me: How do you know if any collection of individuals' prejudices has ever caused war when it could be the invisible hand of capitalist economics? It's invisible.

If I claimed slavery in the early US was all about racist animus and had nothing to do with economic efficiency that would be silly. Businessmen enslave because it makes great wealth, and the specific racisms emerge in parallel to justify and perpetuate the profit. Where do we draw the line for which conflicts we can say definitely starts with the moral flaw of a person/group, and which starts with the forces of economic incentive?

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#399

Post by mikeash » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #397

mikeash wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saying that they could use some of their approximately $10^10 yearly profits to pay people better. How would that cause them to lose money?

They could indeed use their other businesses to fund running their retail/fulfillment business at a loss. But at that point it would be just as rational to jettison those businesses (by spinning them off into another company), and now we're a step behind square one: they lose whatever economies they get from being a single company, their cost basis gets worse, and they're in an even poorer position to pay more. These…

It's also a descriptive observation that they can afford to pay more without destroying the company. Whether they should is a separate question I haven't even attempted to address.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#400

Post by EliRivers » Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #394

ionised wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the homo-economicus argument and it's fallen flat a great many times. Humans act irrationally all the time.

It's humans that would be enacting regulations, too. With market pricing, the people involved are responsible for their own irrational behavior.

With market pricing, the people involved are responsible for their own irrational behavior.

Brilliant. It's all their own choice. They should have chosen to be born into a rich family. They should have chosen an expensive education. They should have chosen good health. They should have chosen a job that pays millions.

All this, of course, is commonly believed in the US. I sometimes suspect that actually it's not so much believed as just something that rich people want very much to believe; it means they can feel like they deserve and earned every last penny, and that they don't have to feel bad at all about all the people being screwed over.