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Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#321

Post by vkou »

dymk wrote: post #305
BurningFrog wrote: post #299

Since Amazon easily hires and retains people at these wages, there very likely isn't anything wrong with these jobs. At least not compared to similar jobs for the same segment of the work force. What I think is really going on here is that Amazon has a PR vulnerability that can be exploited. With enough videos and testimony produced contrasting the plight of the poor oppressed workers with their boss, The World's Ric…

When you employ hundreds of thousands of people, it’s not hard to find hundreds who are incredibly unhappy. Sure, this only represents 0.1% of their workforce, but news agencies don’t care about that. People just want something to be angry about. They’ll continue to ignore that $15/hour is within “living wage” for the low CoL areas that Amazon fulfillment warehouses are located in.

And I must say:

When you employ hundreds of thousands of people, it's not hard to use divide-and-conquer against them, to get them to act against their common interests.

Most of them are not in any position to push back on your demands, even if they'd all be better off from having the freedom to be able to step away from their 'highly important job' to have a piss in peace, without threat of termination.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#322

Post by wutbrodo »

bduerst wrote: post #175
wutbrodo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a mobile app developer would be too difficult to explain to someone from the 80s: they already understood the concept of computer programmers and software, and "everyone has a pocket computer" existed for decades in science fiction by that time. A better analogy would be explaining something like social media consultants (or for that matter, social media influencers). Hell, _I_ still don't understand th…

True, but even a keyboardless PC in your pocket would have been hard to comprehend, as you would have to explain everything from touch LCD screens to the internet. Also talk about online-only businesses or even drop shipping. In 1989 you didn't even have the internet, much less anyone purchasing things online. There are catalog analogies, but the concepts are so foreign it makes it difficult to visualize 30 years fro…

Yea I dunno, all of these seem like pretty simple extensions of existing concepts, to the point that they existed in pretty-much fully-realized form in sci-fi (incl Internet and touchscreen analogues).

I should note that I wasn't trying to be pedantic, and the specific example used in the parent comment doesn't detract from its point. I just think that the social media economy is utterly novel and fascinating.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#323

Post by fourbits »

BurningFrog wrote: post #299

Since Amazon easily hires and retains people at these wages, there very likely isn't anything wrong with these jobs. At least not compared to similar jobs for the same segment of the work force. What I think is really going on here is that Amazon has a PR vulnerability that can be exploited. With enough videos and testimony produced contrasting the plight of the poor oppressed workers with their boss, The World's Ric…

If I'm not mistaken a subset of these protests are in reaction to Amazon allegedly working with ICE.

I did a quick ctrl-f and don't see anyone else talking about this in here. How does HN feel about it?

Personally it's just another reason to keep my distance from Amazon, although I will still randomly yell out Jeff Bezos' name because I find it funny.

Jeff, motherheckin Bezos!

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#324

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

mikeash wrote: post #316
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They only make $5000 per worker per year or so, given that the stock market has consistent returns of about 7% lately it's getting to the point that it would be better to put that money there was opposed to paying workers with it for such small returns.

$11 billion divided by 650,000 workers isn’t $5,000. In any case, the point is that they can pay more. You can quibble over the amount. You can argue about whether or not they should. But they can , in the same way that I can buy an entire truck full of peaches if I decided that would be a good idea.

We are back at run the warehouses at a loss. The profits from AWS have nothing to do with the guys packing boxes and moving the profits from there to them is running it at a loss.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#325

Post by apendleton »

malandrew wrote: post #208
apendleton wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they expect it to be miserable, but expecting a miserable job and being happy about it needn't align. They might not have the necessary skills to be employable in not-miserable work, and might not have the necessary means or time to acquire those skills. What it ultimately comes down to, I think, is: we have enough wealth as a society that if we wanted to, we could allocate resources and labor in such a way…

> We have to collectively decide whether that tradeoff is worth it We do exactly that every day. Price discovery in the market is the result of collective actions that determine if a tradeoff is worth it.

This would be true if all consumers were rational actors and thought through the labor market ramifications of each purchase they made before they made it, but they're not and they don't.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#326

Post by cavisne »

akudha wrote: post #264
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Amazon does not have to automate away jobs instead of giving workers fairer conditions and wages. I'm Amazons competitor, I automate away the jobs and pay the lowest wages possible. Now my goods are cheaper than Amazons and you buy from me instead.

True, but I bet there would be at least a small percentage of people who would still not buy from you because you don't treat your workers well. Most people would still shop with you, as their own wages are crap and they are looking for cheapest places to shop. But if they were paid well, they will at least consider shopping with ethically sound companies. It is like a circle - lower wages lead to lower purchasing po…

Amazon is the second most trusted institution in the USA, behind the military.

It's fairly obvious how the above "draconian" conditions benefit customers. Employees that take long breaks or pick items slowly leads to delayed deliveries, having to employee more staff per delivery, having to raise prices or reduce range to cover this cost.

This is really the flip side of "customer obsessed", when you are focused on customers you don't particularly care about any individual employee (all the way up the chain).

For a counterexample, google and facebook mostly treat their employees well (with the exception of some contractors). However customers don't trust them as much, because they know they are profit/employee focused.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#327

Post by akavi »

mikeash wrote: post #274
rayiner wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analysis is wrong because it ignores two facts (1) Retail is a highly competitive, low margin business; and (2) Economic systems are dynamic, not static. Amazon’s profit margins are in low single digit percent. If Amazon pays above market wages and keeps prices the same, that creates an opportunity for Wal-Mart to come in and lower prices by using lower cost labor. Customers will go to Wal-Mart instead, because…

If Amazon pays their workers more but keeps prices the same, how does that create an opportunity for a competitor?

Yes, because Amazon would no longer exist.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#328

Post by sneak »

icebraining wrote: post #271
mattkrause wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How, in practice, is this supposed to work? The boss shows you a rickety ladder and says “Climb up there or you’re clocking out for the day!” You, drawing on the extensive mechanical engineering and actuarial experience that got you this $15/hr warehouse job, evaluate the likelihood of it collapsing and the expected bills, pain, and suffering if it does. “Looks shakey—give me another $2.73 first”, you say. The boss r…

I'd say the libertarian's response would be that organizations like UL (which already does work for OSHA) would get hired by the company to certify their workplace, which would then serve as enticement for job candidates. This would essentially make job safety another "perk", like flex time and friday pizza - available to some, based on the scarcity of their skills.

As the “libertarian” (not my label) in question in this thread, the response is that use of violence or violent coercion is morally untenable.

Spreading of information so that people can make choices: good

Using sticks and guns and shackles to force people to do as you demand: bad

Safety can be engineered. Do not bake something unsafe (state enforcement via violence) into the system.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#329

Post by dehrmann »

dymk wrote: post #305
BurningFrog wrote: post #299

Since Amazon easily hires and retains people at these wages, there very likely isn't anything wrong with these jobs. At least not compared to similar jobs for the same segment of the work force. What I think is really going on here is that Amazon has a PR vulnerability that can be exploited. With enough videos and testimony produced contrasting the plight of the poor oppressed workers with their boss, The World's Ric…

When you employ hundreds of thousands of people, it’s not hard to find hundreds who are incredibly unhappy. Sure, this only represents 0.1% of their workforce, but news agencies don’t care about that. People just want something to be angry about. They’ll continue to ignore that $15/hour is within “living wage” for the low CoL areas that Amazon fulfillment warehouses are located in.

This reminds me of the Foxconn suicides. Lots of press made it sound like a major problem, but the actual rate was lower than both China and US averages.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#330

Post by sneak »

jodrellblank wrote: post #260
sneak wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employee, and no one else, gets to decide what they want for their body. The fact is, OSHA has no moral basis to override or overrule that human being’s own decisions for their own body. What is deeply immoral is third parties using sticks and firearms to overrule that person’s choices. Their body, their choice.

That's why hundreds of millions of smokers, smoked, after all. They carefully weighed up the evidence, using their medical training, avoided the lies from tobacco company advertising, used their " it's just common sense " know-everything superpower, and - in an almost unprecedented moment of human rational decision making - concluded that smoking was better than non-smoking. No, it didn't happen that way. People smok…

You’re not free unless you’re free to choose bad decisions as well as good ones.

Freedom includes freedom to opt in to risk according to your personal risk tolerance.

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