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Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#221

Post by [deleted] »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #138
JudgeWapner wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for Why does it bother you when people empathize with the poor and castigate billion dollar corporations that don't even allow employees enough time to urinate without it harming the employees metrics making them slip towards the back of the rank and closer to being fired? That bothers you ...think about that.

While I voted you up for the general point, I also think that perhaps cutting off the parent quote where you did is a little unfair: > rather than demonizing the market conditions that have led to Amazon warehouses being a place people are willing to work. It's appropriate to "demonize" Amazon, but isn't that observation also correct? Amazon's taking advantage of desperate people, and no matter the job market conditi…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#222

Post by Amezarak »

malvosenior wrote: post #58
Amezarak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we stop it from happening. It isn’t inevitable. We are all of us making a choice to allow it.

It's important to note this mentality has not worked out well in the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite#Birth_of_the_movement With progress comes new opportunities. It may not happen fr everyone, immediately, but it will happen.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Blithely assuming that it is is dangerous.

The fact that, in the past, the economy created new jobs and new sectors that the majority of people were capable of working in does not guarantee that it always will. Nor when it does is that any consolation to the people un(der)employed for years on end or sometimes for the rest of their life.

In the long run, we are all dead.

The Industrial Revolution and its consequences are a hiccup in human history. Human history is a blip in the world's history. There are no laws when it comes to this. Unless you can provide some other very good reason for believing that more jobs, and good jobs, will be created than those are destroyed, I will have to doubt it given the evidence before me.

Indeed, even many 'good' jobs are actually economically unproductive and totally unfulfilling make-work. Today's situation is much worse than it appears at first glance.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#223

Post by darkpuma »

sneak wrote: post #199
darkpuma wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your system, if I pay an employee to climb an unsafe ladder, OSHA has no right to slap me for that because the employee consented? That sounds awful. There would be many preventable deaths and injuries under a system that neuters OSHA; what you're proposing is deeply immoral.

The employee, and no one else, gets to decide what they want for their body. The fact is, OSHA has no moral basis to override or overrule that human being’s own decisions for their own body. What is deeply immoral is third parties using sticks and firearms to overrule that person’s choices. Their body, their choice.

I must admit, this is the first time I've seen a libertarian bold enough to dress up something as inane as dismantling OSHA with rhetoric deliberately evocative of modern progressive social movements. As though, by dismantling an agency dedicated to assuring safe working conditions, you're doing something akin to legalizing same-sex marriages. I have mad respect to anybody that bold, but give me a break!

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#224

Post by drup86 »

mdorazio wrote: post #49
enlyth wrote: post #15

I agree with the worker in the video, they should be treated as human beings. One of the issues is doing a simple, monotonous task every 8 seconds, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, without creating anything of value, is going to be dehumanizing and unfulfilling regardless. Robots carrying out this work would probably be for the best for everyone involved, although Amazon should do right by the workers carrying them ove…

> The compensation should reflect the mental and physical stress they put people through. As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market. The fact that Amazon can easily hire as many workers as it wants at $15/hr says that they are paying their employees plenty already. It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for t…

What would be wrong in lowering immigration numbers of low skilled immigrants to help people stuck in unfortunate Amazon employment like situation above?

And yet I never hear any such solution being spoken about in public?

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#225

Post by misterprime »

icelancer wrote: post #152
capkutay wrote: post #144

Slightly unrelated but there is something weirdly consistent about how Amazon treats their workers and people who have to work with them. I remember just exhibiting an AWS conference was the most time-intensive grueling event I've ever worked in the tech industry. Obviously not as hard as a factory-working job, but they hold the only event in the industry that has you working from 7 am to 7 pm w/ no break if you want…

...aren't most exhibits/conferences like this? All my trade shows events are at least this grueling, and I no longer work in major IT.

Ew, no. That's horrible. The company I work for does a lot of shows. I generally do about 22/year. A common range is 9am to 5pm, but 10am to 4pm is not unheard of. 8am to 6pm happens from time to time and feels really bad. I think out of 60ish shows that I've done only one was 7am to 7pm.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#226

Post by rayiner »

viraptor wrote: post #202
rayiner wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery was by definition the opposite of a market system, because the government enforced a system where people were not free to choose whether to provide their services in return for compensation.

People could choose. Slaves couldn't. They were literally not considered people (which then "improved" to 3/5th of a person). Or to put it another way, "the market" may decide that the optional strategy is when you have no voice and are an obedient resource. In that case your opinion about it being the opposite of a market system doesn't matter.

Is this what they’re teaching in school these days? Market systems by definition by definition require freedom of transaction on both sides. Slavery is by definition not a market. In a very real sense, it was the industrial market economy of the north that beat the agrarian feudalist economy of the south into submission and freed the slaves.

(Also, slaves were never considered “3/5 of a person. The text of the relevant provision read:

> Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

In the above equation, slaves must count as a whole “person.” Otherwise, you’re multiplying 3/5 by 3/5. That’s just math and grammar. That’s leaving aside the fact that the whole point of this clause was to limit the power of slave states, and it would’ve been better for purposes of this clause to not count slaves as people at all, to further reduce the power of the south.)

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#228

Post by mattkrause »

sneak wrote: post #199
darkpuma wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your system, if I pay an employee to climb an unsafe ladder, OSHA has no right to slap me for that because the employee consented? That sounds awful. There would be many preventable deaths and injuries under a system that neuters OSHA; what you're proposing is deeply immoral.

The employee, and no one else, gets to decide what they want for their body. The fact is, OSHA has no moral basis to override or overrule that human being’s own decisions for their own body. What is deeply immoral is third parties using sticks and firearms to overrule that person’s choices. Their body, their choice.

How, in practice, is this supposed to work?

The boss shows you a rickety ladder and says “Climb up there or you’re clocking out for the day!” You, drawing on the extensive mechanical engineering and actuarial experience that got you this $15/hr warehouse job, evaluate the likelihood of it collapsing and the expected bills, pain, and suffering if it does. “Looks shakey—give me another $2.73 first”, you say. The boss rummages around his bag, hands you some change, and away you go.

Even if in a world where individual freedom/responsibility trumps everything else, it seems like safety standards would save hassle. In the actual world, where everyone can’t assess all of these risks—-and many of them are hard even for experts to accurately measure—they seem even more worthwhile.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#230

Post by drup86 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #218
lallysingh wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for their labor practices rather than demonizing the market conditions that have led to Amazon warehouses being a place people are willing to work. That's about as useful a statement as "Thoughts and prayers." To change the labor market you go after the parties you can affect. Amazon is one. There are many others on the demand side. Retaining the workforce…

Supply side economics has been debunked over and over. To change the labour market you reduce the labour supply or increase demand. Demand is already high, so tighten up labour supply. Or, in other words, limit immigration.

> limit immigration

I think at this point most smart members of HN should realize that the only reason immigration has much momentum is because the democratic party relies on it to win elections. All I see from Democrats is all talk about helping the poor but they don't do the most sensible and easiest thing to help the poor, simply limit the pool of labor by limiting immigration of low skilled workers.

Which makes one realize, it's all about winning elections and all of the "*ist" allegations are insincere and fake.

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