Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#51

Post by zaksoup » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

Wohlf wrote: post #16

Animats wrote: post #9

Yes. Don't be a scab and cross the picket line. Don't buy from Amazon today.

Scabs are workers who cross the picket line, not customers. If you think boycotts are a good idea, ask the auto unions how well customers not buying cars worked out for their members.

Are you implying that the unions asked Americans to boycott cars that weren't foreign-assembled crossovers?

Your comment seems to not really make much sense since UAW and other unions are currently involved in calling for boycotts of Mexico-assembled GM vehicles.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#52

Post by beatgammit » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #40

vorpalhex wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the fix to this is Amazon laying off all their workers?

As automation keeps on improving and productivity gets more centralized will there be a shortage of jobs? The above poster makes a fair point that this is work well suited to automation. In the broader sense with retail closing and Amazon taking market share, centralizing productivity (i.e. reducing retail jobs to fewer picker jobs), and then automating those fewer jobs away entirely, are we going to have a hole in s…

It's highly unlikely that 20% will disappear overnight. Every other case where we've seen automation/innovation eliminating jobs has been a gradual process, so I see no reason for this not to continue.

Amazon has been testing cashierless grocery stores, yet they haven't completely eliminated their competition where they're available. I'm sure they'll become popular, but they'll likely roll out relatively slowly. We already have self checkout, yet some people prefer to checkout with a human, and I doubt that will change.

Manufacturing jobs have been using more and more automation, yet manufacturing jobs are still available, just different. Many jobs that used to be minimum wage jobs have been replaced by higher paying jobs with specialists; there are fewer of them, sure, but they pay better.

As labor jobs get replaced by automation, we'll invent new jobs to take advantage of the increased labor pool. That's just the way innovation goes.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#53

Post by icelancer » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:24 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #47

jerf wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff's net worth isn't in cash. It's going to be affected much more strangely than your analysis suggests. If Amazon has to raise its labor costs that much, Wall Street will react in a way that is difficult to predict the magnitude, but easy to predict the direction. Normally I'd suggest analyzing that 13.2B in terms of the profits of the company, which for instance last Jan 2019 was ~$3 billion, which if projected o…

If a company cannot pay it's workers properly then, to be honest, it really shouldn't exist.

People keep seeming to apply for jobs at Amazon warehouses making $15-16/hr, so...

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#54

Post by zaksoup » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:25 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #47

jerf wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff's net worth isn't in cash. It's going to be affected much more strangely than your analysis suggests. If Amazon has to raise its labor costs that much, Wall Street will react in a way that is difficult to predict the magnitude, but easy to predict the direction. Normally I'd suggest analyzing that 13.2B in terms of the profits of the company, which for instance last Jan 2019 was ~$3 billion, which if projected o…

If a company cannot pay it's workers properly then, to be honest, it really shouldn't exist.

This so much. All of this analysis is predicated on the idea that Amazon has made this value for its owners through legitimate means and not by underpaying, overworking, and dehumanizing vast swathes of their workforce. It's so bizarre to me that people think it's a reasonable argument to make that "X company couldn't do Y if they payed better" and the response is just a giant shrug and "I guess their workers will have to pee in bottles and get second jobs" and not "X company therefor can't reasonable do Y"

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#55

Post by reroute1 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:25 PM UTC

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #38

dhruvrrp wrote: post #17

> He says he has to pick an item about every eight seconds, or 332 per hour, for a 10 hour day. Ignoring the math, it’s hard to imagine that pace. Are they forced to continually be moving? Or is the person counting picking up, say 15 usb chargers as 15 separate things?

Yes. I read an article last week about a guy who got fired for "unnecessary motion." (will update this comment with a link if I can dig it up.) Here's a story about a patent on a wristband that enables this kind of tracking: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/31/amazon-wa... It is humanly possible. As a teenager, I worked at UPS, where I was expected to stack boxes real-life-Tetris-style into a van at a…

I also did this and have younger friends who still do. I much preferred that job to a customer service one where I had to deal with angry people all day. I was also sorting via zip codes and enjoyed the physical work... I don't understand what people accepting a factory job expect. It is repetitive, non-creative, work. That is the idea.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#56

Post by SauciestGNU » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #35

astura wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Scabs are workers who cross the picket line, not customers. That's not the way unions themselves use the word. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24904995/boston-union-ca... "Boston union calls Yankees 'scabs' for crossing hotel picket line"

Only because it's a way to use and coöpt language for your cause, not because it's the way the public understands it. It's like AOC insunuating Pelosi racist. It's used for effect. Or, imagine a nurses' strike, but I as a patient don't honor their strike, am I a scab?

If you're a patient for something elective that could be delayed until after the conclusion of the labor action then yes, you're a scab. For emergency care? Probably not.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#57

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #49

enlyth wrote: post #15

I agree with the worker in the video, they should be treated as human beings. One of the issues is doing a simple, monotonous task every 8 seconds, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, without creating anything of value, is going to be dehumanizing and unfulfilling regardless. Robots carrying out this work would probably be for the best for everyone involved, although Amazon should do right by the workers carrying them ove…

> The compensation should reflect the mental and physical stress they put people through. As with all companies paying workers to do a job, the compensation should reflect the confluence of supply and demand in the market. The fact that Amazon can easily hire as many workers as it wants at $15/hr says that they are paying their employees plenty already. It bothers me that people are constantly demonizing Amazon for t…

Market conditions are set by regulation and market participants (there is no such thing as a pure free market except in an economist's textbook). Congress (the Senate specifically, conservatives/republicans) have failed to raise the federal minimum wage ($7.25, unchanged since 2009) to reflect the required wage to survive with increased costs of living (housing, broken healthcare, etc). This caused Senator Sanders to have to shame Amazon into paying a higher wage to Amazon's warehouse workers (which Amazon not only agreed to do, but also stated they would lobby for raising the federal minimum wage as well).

Why shouldn't one of the wealthiest companies in the world (a labor market participant) be demonizied for worker abuse, even if it is "legal"?

If you don't understand what Amazon fulfillment workers experience, I encourage you to take a vacation day or two and apply for a job at a warehouse as a runner. You'll only need a day or two to appreciate the experience. There is no college course or bootcamp for compassion and empathy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9m7d07k22A (Warehouses: HBO's Last Week Tonight with John Oliver)

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#58

Post by malvosenior » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

Amezarak wrote: post #13

nerdjon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... it's happening. So either we continue to deny it isn't or we actually start those conversations now and figure out how we live in that world. And there is a correlation between actions like this and the desire to have a more automated workforce. Not saying that as blame because there are many other reasons and you can look at the reasons their jobs are so bad right now anyways. But we can't ignore it.

Or we stop it from happening. It isn’t inevitable. We are all of us making a choice to allow it.

It's important to note this mentality has not worked out well in the past:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite#Birth_of_the_movement

With progress comes new opportunities. It may not happen fr everyone, immediately, but it will happen.

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#59

Post by vecter » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #47

jerf wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff's net worth isn't in cash. It's going to be affected much more strangely than your analysis suggests. If Amazon has to raise its labor costs that much, Wall Street will react in a way that is difficult to predict the magnitude, but easy to predict the direction. Normally I'd suggest analyzing that 13.2B in terms of the profits of the company, which for instance last Jan 2019 was ~$3 billion, which if projected o…

If a company cannot pay it's workers properly then, to be honest, it really shouldn't exist.

Define "properly"

Re: Amazon workers launch protests on Prime Day

#60

Post by qwsxyh » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

nerdjon wrote: post #6

throwaway2048 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of smug proclamations about how all these workers are going to be replaced by robots in these threads is really gross. Nearly everyone that posts on HN is in a situation where their employer holds vastly more power than themselves in their employer/employee relationship, statistically are you likely being screwed, and you aren't going to be Jeff Bezos one day either.

I mean... it's happening. So either we continue to deny it isn't or we actually start those conversations now and figure out how we live in that world. And there is a correlation between actions like this and the desire to have a more automated workforce. Not saying that as blame because there are many other reasons and you can look at the reasons their jobs are so bad right now anyways. But we can't ignore it.

It's happening but that doesn't mean a) we should just bend over and accept being fucked over due to some vague robot threat in the future or b) make jokes about workers having to bend over.