Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated • Hacker News Board

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#181

Post by youngtaff » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:13 AM UTC

pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #114

cannonedhamster wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's food/greade on the item that can't be removed for one reason or another toss it, it can't be recycled efficiently. There solved your moral dilemma. Generally only clean paper, glass, and metal are recyclable. Plastics depend entirely on the locality and still require it to be clean. Also I work at a food pantry. Donations of canned goods are always welcome, same for razors, toiletries, etc. Anything that c…

> There solved your moral dilemma. Recycling has built up such inertia as the "moral" path, regardless of its inefficiencies for most materials, that it's become an unsustainable clusterfuck that we can't move away. Where I live, it's been codified- municipalities must recycle, and also must discourage landfill-bound waste. The result is that I've been issued a 64-gallon mixed-recycling bin that is picked up once a w…

As a family of three we have a 140 litre (~37 US Gallons) bin for non-recyclables that's collected every two weeks and it's normally only half full

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#182

Post by benj111 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:15 AM UTC

DocTomoe wrote: post #172

benj111 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer feasible to just "throw away"" By the same token, it gave us the power to produce so much stuff that we can afford to throw stuff away. Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired? Your average family of 100 years ago was throwing away ashes and what? The rag and bone man collected rags and bones, veg peelings would ha…

> Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired? I have done both in the last two years. I also do not send my brand-new car to the junkyard once the ashtray is full. It's wasteful.

My grandmother darns her socks too.

It isn't the 'normal' thing though, certainly not for younger generations.

What were the economics of your tv repair, what was the cost of the repair v replacement and how old was the tv? Last time I looked into it, they were doubtful they could get the parts, and the likely charge was higher than replacing the tv. The same isnt true for emptying the ashtray. In fact I don't even need to take the car to the garage to empty the ashtray, I can do it myself!

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#183

Post by grive » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:23 AM UTC

stretchwithme wrote: post #95

Eventually, robots will go through all of the landfills and recover a lot of the materials in it. And they might get all the energy they need to do it from the garbage itself. Hey, if insects can do it, robots will eventually be able to do it.

That's just magical thinking. Nothing suggests that it is in the realm of possibility.

What is the energy potential in the materials in a landfill? How much is wasted by scouring them and trying to properly extract it? Compared to preventing the capture of those materials there in the first place?

Putting the survival of our species on the possibility of some pixie dust is not rational. It is hard to face the truth, but burying your head in the sand is counter-productive.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#184

Post by noobermin » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:26 AM UTC

Point 5 misses a bit of facts. The reason the US and the UK don't seep garbage into the ocean is we export a bit[0] of it to...guess where? Places like China, India, Indonesia, and Vietnam. This[1] is relevant. Idk, that refutation alone makes one wonder how effective landfills are in the west if we must send our trash to other countries to keep from filling our own landfills.

As mentioned elsewhere in this comment section, the right answer is for people to reduce first and recycle last. On that front, the west (and America in particular) is chief in exhaustion of resources and consumption.

[0] I originally said "half" which was just me using colorful speech. This comment deals with facts so I don't want to include a number and have people think it's literal.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/28/treated-...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#185

Post by air7 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:27 AM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #56

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

So is recycling plastic and paper not effective? I have some anxiety issue and one of the ways that they manifest is obsessing about recycling so not having to worry about plastic and paper would be a huge improvement in my quality of life. Edit: I should clarify, I realize that the article is saying that recycling plastic and paper isn't worth it, but is that a mainstream opinion?

I'd say that regardless of the effectiveness of recycling you shouldn't be doing it.

The (arguable) utility of your recycling vs. its cost to you is obviously very negative. And not just on purely selfish level: I don't know what your line of work is, but I'm sure society will benefit much more if you were calmer but didn't recycle than the other way around.

So here's a "get out of recycling jail" card for you and others like you. It's like herd immunization: Don't worry about it, we got you covered.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#186

Post by AmericanChopper » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:27 AM UTC

contactlight11 wrote: post #154

How about this information from CT's DEEP which quotes the EPA for the majority of it's information? Compared to virgin materials, using recycled materials more efficient by: - 40% for paper - 60-74% for steel and tin cans - 33% for plastics - 30% for glass - 5% for aluminum cans These numbers appear to be referencing the generation of new products using recycled vs new materials, but do they fail to take in to accou…

> first step realize that happiness is not automatically linked to consumption

I’ve always thought that framing the issue like this is both smug and dishonest.

Smug because you’re essentially saying that people are wrong about the things they believe bring them satisfaction and comfort.

Dishonest because reduce in this context will always mean a reduction in quality of life.

Aside from being an ineffective way to convince people of anything, it also seems counterproductive in the sense that it alienates people from caring about the issue.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#187

Post by noobermin » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #94

wbraun wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully share this cynicism about recycling things that are not aluminum or glass. It also seems that by making people feel better about generating nominally recyclable waste they are encouraged to consume more. I am at least familiar with arguments against US-style airport security and donating cans of food, but whats wrong with hybrid cars? I don't know of any arguments that they are net neutral / harmful.

It’s pretty common to see arguments that the net lifecycle impact of a hybrid outweighs that of a traditional car, because it has more impact in manufacturing. It’s not true (there is more impact in manufacturing, but the breakeven point is fairly early) but it’s an attractive notion to people with a contrarian bent, especially those who like to think that environmentalists are stupid. Incidentally, the same thing ex…

Solar panels are tricky because they rely on certain elements which are rather rare actually. I feel like there needs to be a serious study into whether increased mining/production of solar panels is a net gain or loss. It does feel however than reckoning with climate change will require more on the consumption/behavior side than technology side unfortunately.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#188

Post by lenkite » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #170

nordsieck wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Throwing stuff away was the normal way of life before modern civilization arrived What? Absolutely not. Things were precious and labor was cheap back in the day. Anything that could be repaired was. Ever heard of "darning socks"? Yeah - no one would do that today, but it was common 100 years ago. > just like defecating wherever you find convenient Lol. People found out pretty quickly that you have to give a crap ab…

> The earth is big. Really big. Stupendously big. The wonder (and horror) of modern civilization is that this kind of thinking is obsolete. Pregnant women are advised not to eat tuna, caught anywhere, because we managed to pollute the entire ocean with mercury. We're producing so much chemical fertilizers that we create more biologically available nitrogen than the rest of nature combined. And of course we're warming…

Unfortunately just stopping will not be good enough. https://phys.org/news/2017-10-global-doesnt-emissions.html

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#189

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:33 AM UTC

Zarel wrote: post #175

contactlight11 wrote: post #154

How about this information from CT's DEEP which quotes the EPA for the majority of it's information? Compared to virgin materials, using recycled materials more efficient by: - 40% for paper - 60-74% for steel and tin cans - 33% for plastics - 30% for glass - 5% for aluminum cans These numbers appear to be referencing the generation of new products using recycled vs new materials, but do they fail to take in to accou…

That's weird. In my experience, products advertising "made using recycled materials" tend to be more expensive than without (with the exception of aluminum, which tends not to be advertised as recycled at all). Are there costs missing from your efficiency numbers?

>In my experience, products advertising "made using recycled materials" tend to be more expensive than without

That's not necessarily because of their higher cost to produce. It's often because they target higher end "environmentally conscious" customers, and use the "made with recycled materials" as a price differentiation / market segmentation strategy (working class Joe? get our $1 notebook. Latte-sipping hipster? Here's our $5 recycled notebook)...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#190

Post by grive » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 7:34 AM UTC

orev wrote: post #13

Landfills are going to become a gold mine when someone finally invents a Wall-E robot. With the advances in AI going on right now, it seems like a feasible thing to happen soon.

This is just so far out. "AI" is currently expert systems and we are seeing its limitations (see setbacks in autonomous driving). It has nowhere near the potential to drive the search and extraction of energy sources in landfills.