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Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

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Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#171

Post by slavik81 »

triangulum wrote: post #129
pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There solved your moral dilemma. Recycling has built up such inertia as the "moral" path, regardless of its inefficiencies for most materials, that it's become an unsustainable clusterfuck that we can't move away. Where I live, it's been codified- municipalities must recycle, and also must discourage landfill-bound waste. The result is that I've been issued a 64-gallon mixed-recycling bin that is picked up once a w…

That’s a good point: if municipalities want you to recycle, they need to provide the necessary infrastructure, and that means at least three source separated bins (ideally 5-7), and a clean container collection system. Otherwise it just turns people off the whole system. A financial incentive to save money when you don’t throw away as much into the landfill bin helps too. Any chance you could compost the kitchen scra…

Ideally you would incentivize people to create less trash by charging them by weight or volume for collection, but there are two possibilities for households wanting lower bills: reducing waste or littering. And it only takes a few people choosing littering to make a huge mess.

I'd try to collect payment for disposal earlier. If you pay for disposal when you buy the product, it makes doing the right thing easy. It also makes products with wasteful packaging more expensive right there in the store, encouraging people to buy less wasteful alternatives.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#172

Post by DocTomoe »

benj111 wrote: post #64
yongjik wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization ... I think you got it backwards. Throwing stuff away was the normal way of life before modern civilization arrived, just like defecating wherever you find convenient, hunting animals for dinner, or riding hoses on whatever side of road you like. The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer…

"The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer feasible to just "throw away"" By the same token, it gave us the power to produce so much stuff that we can afford to throw stuff away. Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired? Your average family of 100 years ago was throwing away ashes and what? The rag and bone man collected rags and bones, veg peelings would ha…

> Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired?

I have done both in the last two years. I also do not send my brand-new car to the junkyard once the ashtray is full. It's wasteful.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#173

Post by zaroth »

DocTomoe wrote: post #172
benj111 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The wonder of modern civilization gave us so much power to produce stuff that it's no longer feasible to just "throw away"" By the same token, it gave us the power to produce so much stuff that we can afford to throw stuff away. Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired? Your average family of 100 years ago was throwing away ashes and what? The rag and bone man collected rags and bones, veg peelings would ha…

> Who darns socks anymore? Or has their tv repaired? I have done both in the last two years. I also do not send my brand-new car to the junkyard once the ashtray is full. It's wasteful.

Wait, new cars still have ashtrays?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#174

Post by charles_f »

em-bee wrote: post #169
em-bee wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uhm no. i'd like to see some evidence to that. most of what we throw away is packaging. in the past there was little packaging. and most packaging was reusable, a cloth, a bag or a chest for example. if it wasn't for packaging, in my daily life i would hardly have any trash at all. almost everything i am able to reuse, and i buy with re-usability in mind. this is not something i learned in school, or from somehow env…

in the past, the only form of trash was compost. and even that was (re)used.

Hmm I'm pretty sure these forks and vampire hunting crossbows from then were coming in their plastic wrappers. Else, not sure how they'd handle container shipping without breaking the merchandise.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#175

Post by Zarel »

contactlight11 wrote: post #154

How about this information from CT's DEEP which quotes the EPA for the majority of it's information? Compared to virgin materials, using recycled materials more efficient by: - 40% for paper - 60-74% for steel and tin cans - 33% for plastics - 30% for glass - 5% for aluminum cans These numbers appear to be referencing the generation of new products using recycled vs new materials, but do they fail to take in to accou…

That's weird. In my experience, products advertising "made using recycled materials" tend to be more expensive than without (with the exception of aluminum, which tends not to be advertised as recycled at all). Are there costs missing from your efficiency numbers?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#176

Post by Tharkun »

learc83 wrote: post #83
agumonkey wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we all used dry / compost toilets ?

Dry composting toilets are not remotely practical for high density areas like NYC.

Hmm, that's probably a good point. NYC residents likely have little use for compost. And having to wheel bales (?) of dried poop out of your flat could get a bit annoying. Then again, presumably they already take out their trash, so maybe it's not totally unfeasible?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#177

Post by reitzensteinm »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #72
harimau777 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is recycling plastic and paper not effective? I have some anxiety issue and one of the ways that they manifest is obsessing about recycling so not having to worry about plastic and paper would be a huge improvement in my quality of life. Edit: I should clarify, I realize that the article is saying that recycling plastic and paper isn't worth it, but is that a mainstream opinion?

It's strangely mainstream in American libertarian circles (and therefore places like HN), but even they seem to spend most of their time railing against the sheep-like masses who have been hoodwinked so I guess even that is a tacit admission that it's not mainstream. The article likewise cites a whole bunch of libertarian sources that unsurprisingly conclude that government interference is bad. On the other hand, her…

Worrying about how carbon taxes will affect the poor is absolutely legitimate, and that's coming from someone that thinks we need one yesterday. Calling it baseless propaganda probably says more about you than it does the argument in question.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#178

Post by barry-cotter »

em-bee wrote: post #143
bdamm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food for the chickens, perhaps?

those people were moving to the west in search for a place to live. they moved because they couldn't live where they were. if they could afford to throw stuff away they probably would not have moved in the first place

To outfit a wagon to go West with all the supplies necessary cost the inflation adjusted equivalent of about $100K. Wagons, livestock, supplies to live on while travelling and when homesteading before the first harvest came in were not cheap. That’s without considering the materiel you’d need to set up a farm when you got to your homestead. North America was labour scarce compared to Europe from 1492 on. There was always a place to live and work to do for the able bodied who were willing to work. That’s why millions traveled from Europe to save large sums of money before going home to buy a farm or send for their families from home.

People did not go West because they had no place to live.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#180

Post by smsm42 »

spodek wrote: post #124
viraptor wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations like recycling because it promotes growth -- the opposite of reduction. What do you mean by "promotes growth" here? You pay for your recycling just like your trash. Why would any company like it more than reducing overall waste?

It promotes their growth -- say packaged good companies like Coca-Cola, Trader Joe's, or Starbucks. Clothing companies like H&M and Zara. Most unnecessary material stuff. A statistic from The Story of Stuff https://storyofstuff.org/movies/story-of-stuff comes to mind that something like 99% of things Americans buy end up in landfills within one year. Manufacturers slap the word "recyclable" on those products to get p…

> 99% of things Americans buy end up in landfills within one year.

What "things" means here? A car is a "thing" and a toothpick is a "thing". I can use the car for 10 years and I use several toothpicks per day. So on average, I throw nearly everything very quickly, but the picture seems to be misleading if we remember we're comparing toothpicks to cars...

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