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Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#171

Post by unnouinceput »

Usually I am the object of envy from others (family, friends, acquaintance, neighbors). As a freelancer whom can afford to spend a lot of time doing fun stuff and travel with my family, they always ask me how much money I make. I just explain I am a freelancer and I do stuff on internet, but I never disclose my real income.

One time I met an old friend whom I lost touch, we were in the beginning of 2000's simple programmers at a firm and after that each departed on our ways. So I met him in a plane, me with my family, him alone. Started talking and whatever each has done meanwhile. So he tells me he is the big boss of an international firm, has a very good salary and stuff, planes tickets are bought by the company, car with driver awaiting to drive where he wants, the whole package of a man who did it in life. So I ask him, how much you get paid USD/h? He tells me his monthly salary, which is quite big for our country and we start the math. On one side is the total annual salary + bonuses + covered expenses + medical insurance, etc etc. On the other side number of hours he works/wastes for the firm. We come to an agreement he is paid ~20 euros/hour. Then I drop the bomb "you know, I have plenty of clients who I simple refuse their projects because I don't have time for them, will you consider come working for me and help me with those projects? I will pay you double, 40 euros/hour for beginning and later we can raise to 50 after you get back in business with programming skills?"...his jaw dropped.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#172

Post by aerovistae »

JohnBooty wrote: post #149
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've seen happen is that people find cognitive-dissonance coping strategies like you describe and just find solace in that. They change their goals "I didn't want that anyway" "It wasn't my destiny to do that" "I'm much happier with this than if I had done that" etc... At the end of the day you either realize your goal, or you change it. You can either pretend like it was the plan all along, admit defeat and try…

Wow. Your appraisal is bleak and, fortunately, disconnected from reality. Cognitive dissonance, indeed! Think about any life goal that requires significant work, such as "I'd like to be a superstar engineer" or "I've got no savings, but I want to save up and buy a house" or "I'd like to become a black-belt martial artist" or "I'd like to publish a successful novel." How long does it take to achieve something like tha…

Thanks for saying this. Sometimes you just hope someone will come out and give the reply you can't quite find the words for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#173

Post by mesarvagya »

I know this will get lost in lots of comments. But the medicine to any problem is * Mental Peace *.

Try following steps:

1. Take a deep breath, let all your thoughts flow naturally.

2. See what's happening with your thoughts as a second person's perspective.

3. Know that you aren't your thoughts. It is you who can change any thought.

4. Remind yourself that nothing last forever. Even if you had all the money in world, it would still not be enough, and you won't take a dime after you pass.

5. Realize that you have limited time in this Earth. Do what you always wanted.

6. If in doubt, repeat this cycle.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#174

Post by ccou »

unnouinceput wrote: post #171

Usually I am the object of envy from others (family, friends, acquaintance, neighbors). As a freelancer whom can afford to spend a lot of time doing fun stuff and travel with my family, they always ask me how much money I make. I just explain I am a freelancer and I do stuff on internet, but I never disclose my real income. One time I met an old friend whom I lost touch, we were in the beginning of 2000's simple prog…

I'm sorry but I fail to understand how this post was in any way helpful.

Can you explain what it was here that you thought would help OP in helping him deal with his problems?

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#175

Post by knocte »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #150
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #106

I've yet to meet someone I would trade places with. If they're smarter than me, maybe they make less money. If they're richer than me, and smarter, maybe I don't care for their spouse. Or they're in bad physical shape, or they're neurotic and difficult to be around. If all else fails, you can consider how many people have it worse than you, and how, even if you had it worse, it would still be ok. Until a man is twent…

That’s an interesting thought that I’ve never personally had. I know dozens of people whose lives I’d rather have.

Are you 100% sure? Maybe they have a downside that you wouldn't be willing to accept.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#176

Post by richk449 »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #146
CalRobert wrote: post #81

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are working really hard to make other people rich. Being really good at that game (and it's a pretty bitter game) isn't something to be envious of. I have never seen a high paying job in tech that wasn't ALSO higher stress and generally more hours. I'm sure exceptions exist, but…

My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. The stock answer is contentment and "happiness." The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan, Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted…

> My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life?

> I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. ...

> This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you.

Why can't "raising a family" be the totally compelling thing you do that has impact on you? The "point of your life"?

I'm not saying that is me, but I think the people that choose that are making a perfectly rational choice.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#177

Post by c22 »

andreilys wrote: post #168
c22 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a solid observation. I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free. As a result of this decision I make a lot less money than many of my peers, but I'm always working on projects I'm excited about and I have more free time than most of the people I know. If anything, like you, I feel sorry for the people I see working all the t…

Money buys freedom from wage slavery.

At a certain point, sure, but statistically you're unlikely to get there through wage slavery. Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#178

Post by mikekchar »

andreilys wrote: post #168
c22 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a solid observation. I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free. As a result of this decision I make a lot less money than many of my peers, but I'm always working on projects I'm excited about and I have more free time than most of the people I know. If anything, like you, I feel sorry for the people I see working all the t…

Money buys freedom from wage slavery.

There was a cool article I saw quite a while ago where a father of 2 and sole provider for his family found that it was next to impossible to survive comfortably in London on half a million GBP per year. He went through all the numbers and showed how it just couldn't be done. Of course he was making 10x what would be considered a good wage in London. It wasn't his salary, it was his minimum standard that was out of whack. The best part of the article was that it wasn't dead pan humour -- he was just clueless.

There is a certain minimum amount of money you need to be comfortable. How much money that is depends a lot on where you live, but it also depends a lot on your values. There isn't one point where you can choose to be free -- there are several and some of them are surprisingly low, monetarily. Most people choose not to be free. It's very interesting.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#179

Post by alexashka »

Just live your life. It goes away with life experience. By getting what you want, you realize it's not what you really want.

By this process of slow elimination, your desires become far less about having more things (envy aka someone is better is about them having more things), and far more about having more time, to go for a walk, to play with your kids, to read a book.

It's hard to be envious of someone going for a walk in the park :)

Western society has a masterful advertising and marketing machine that makes most people feel inadequate about things that make no sense, like a car somebody drives, or a suit they wear, or a number in their bank account?! As if those things are worth missing a kids' birthday party for! They're only worth anything because other sleepwalkers will give you props for them. Comparing yourself to others goes away by the time you're 30 or 40 - you just cease giving a shit, mostly due to being worn out and with that, advertising no longer works on you, much.

Anyhoo, it goes away on its own as you get that girl, get that car, get that job, and realize it's not it. What a hoot :)

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#180

Post by brooklyn_ashey »

I think once someone has carved out a place for themselves, it seems like it’s something to be attained, like it exists as a thing to envy or a “place”to be. But you are only ever seeing a distinct part of a longer, more complex story, the small part you envy. You see your own path more realistically—as the longer story it actually is. You remember its aspirational beginnings and mundane points along the way. It has its high and low points too.

It’s natural for everyone to want to be at a high point when they’re struggling to get somewhere. And then when someone’s at a really high point, it doesn’t necessarily feel that way to them. “Success” usually feels more like success to its far off audience and often more like work to the person supposedly “enjoying” it.

Focus on finding the joy/inspiration/thrill in what you are doing now. Because it isn’t the wild success that will quell these feelings of envy. The envy is more of a sign that you should be doing something you actually love doing! If you were, you’d be thinking about your own stuff and what cool thing to do with it next, instead of what someone else is accomplishing. If you can’t find the joy in your current thing, then work on what you are truly compelled by. If you are in that zone, you will never envy anyone else, because you will be far too absorbed in doing what you deeply love doing.

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