Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated • Hacker News Board

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#81

Post by pdonis » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #65

slfnflctd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past, I was bearish on hybrids. They seemed overcomplicated and ineffectual. After having driven one for a while, I've done a complete 180. The fact is, they're a perfect interim solution which really brings 'the best of both worlds'. One thing I wasn't expecting was how the system trains me to drive differently and minimize wasteful fuel use-- something that simply doesn't exist in non-hybrids. I think they m…

"overcomplicated" From a mechanical pov? Your experience doesn't seem like it would refute that? To be fair I'm not sure how you could refute it without long term large scale reliability testing.

Hybrids are more complicated than non-hybrids, not so much mechanically as electrically and in the controls. It takes very sophisticated computer software and calibrations to properly manage the charge/discharge of the battery pack and the electric motors when doing regenerative braking or acceleration, in order to provide the same functionality as a simple throttle and mechanical brakes do in a non-hybrid.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#82

Post by skybrian » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

It seems like compostable containers might be more practical, since the food and container go into the same bin?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#83

Post by learc83 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #20

melling wrote: post #2

NYC ships its garbage hundreds, and even thousands of miles in some cases: https://www.freshairfortheeastside.com/latestnews/2018/1/22/... There’s even a poop train to Alabama: https://beta.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/...

What if we all used dry / compost toilets ?

Dry composting toilets are not remotely practical for high density areas like NYC.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#84

Post by throwaway3627 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #41

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

Wish-cycling. You want it to be true. You have good intentions. You want your waste to be recycled. So you throw it into a recycling bin. Maybe it'll work? It seems better to err on the side that it will? But unfortunately when it gets to the sorting table/machines it often just makes things worse.

There's problems and solutions that need policy and political will to implement:

- consumer-sorted recycling is a BandAid virtue-signal and ineffective because it gets mixed up, under-sorted and contaminated

- post-consumer waste-stream separation works. Stanford does it because five bins was ridiculous

- all trash should be recycled, composted at-scale to reach near zero landfill stream

- Structural waste reduction by source-return reuse, recycling

- single-use plastics should be eliminated

- plastics that cannot be recycled should be banned from retail sale, packaging, products and landfills

Maybe very large taxes on landfill waste would compel recycling and manufacturing to get their acts together?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#85

Post by pdonis » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #23

kja1123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reduce waste, you'd have to make things more repairable -> But the labor costs in developed economies discourages that If you make things more repairable -> net consumption might go down -> this might lead to loss of jobs. Does my analysis make any sense?

Seems to me that your two points oppose each other. If the cost of repair is too high because of labor costs, that indicates that it would create jobs, not destroy them.

> If the cost of repair is too high because of labor costs, that indicates that it would create jobs, not destroy them.

Not if people, foreseeing high repair costs, simply figured out how to do without the items altogether and stopped buying them.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#86

Post by notatoad » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:45 PM UTC

kja1123 wrote: post #11

rahimiali wrote: post #7

three main issues: 1) yes the Earth is huge but cities really don't have easy access to landfill, and many are in fact running out of it because transporting garbage is expensive. 2) podcasts aren't convincing sources for a debate. 3) the real debate is "how do we reduce waste", not "landfill vs recycling".

To reduce waste, you'd have to make things more repairable -> But the labor costs in developed economies discourages that If you make things more repairable -> net consumption might go down -> this might lead to loss of jobs. Does my analysis make any sense?

>But the labor costs in developed economies discourages that

Which is a perfect example of poorly priced externalities. The full cost of disposal should be priced into everything produced. It is completely backwards that throwing a glass bottle in the trash is cheaper than sterilizing and re-using it.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#87

Post by SamPatt » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #72

harimau777 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is recycling plastic and paper not effective? I have some anxiety issue and one of the ways that they manifest is obsessing about recycling so not having to worry about plastic and paper would be a huge improvement in my quality of life. Edit: I should clarify, I realize that the article is saying that recycling plastic and paper isn't worth it, but is that a mainstream opinion?

It's strangely mainstream in American libertarian circles (and therefore places like HN), but even they seem to spend most of their time railing against the sheep-like masses who have been hoodwinked so I guess even that is a tacit admission that it's not mainstream. The article likewise cites a whole bunch of libertarian sources that unsurprisingly conclude that government interference is bad. On the other hand, her…

The first two citations are NPR. Not libertarian by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#88

Post by henrikschroder » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

barkingtoad wrote: post #73

Panino wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once helped out a project which involved talking to a landfill operator. They mentioned that deer like to drink the water pooling in the landfill and theorized that it tasted "sweet." Of course, hunters then kill and eat these deer.

What happens then?

You absorb the heavy metals and other harmful components that the deer have been absorbing by drinking landfill leakage, which is kinda not good for your body.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#89

Post by henrikschroder » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

throwaway3627 wrote: post #84

Reedx wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish-cycling. You want it to be true. You have good intentions. You want your waste to be recycled. So you throw it into a recycling bin. Maybe it'll work? It seems better to err on the side that it will? But unfortunately when it gets to the sorting table/machines it often just makes things worse.

There's problems and solutions that need policy and political will to implement: - consumer-sorted recycling is a BandAid virtue-signal and ineffective because it gets mixed up, under-sorted and contaminated - post-consumer waste-stream separation works. Stanford does it because five bins was ridiculous - all trash should be recycled, composted at-scale to reach near zero landfill stream - Structural waste reduction…

Single-use plastics are perfectly fine if:

1) You already have oil-powered power plants, and

2) You have efficient, modern trash incinerators that can recover 90%+ of the energy in plastics, and

3) You make sure that all plastic garbage actually ends up incinerated.

Because the utility you get out of making plastics out of oil, using the plastics for something, and then burning it, is higher than just straight up burning the oil.

But if you fail any of these three points, you're better off banning single-use plastics.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#90

Post by skybrian » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

rahimiali wrote: post #7

three main issues: 1) yes the Earth is huge but cities really don't have easy access to landfill, and many are in fact running out of it because transporting garbage is expensive. 2) podcasts aren't convincing sources for a debate. 3) the real debate is "how do we reduce waste", not "landfill vs recycling".

How expensive is transporting garbage?