Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated • Hacker News Board

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#51

Post by slfnflctd » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

wbraun wrote: post #34

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

I fully share this cynicism about recycling things that are not aluminum or glass. It also seems that by making people feel better about generating nominally recyclable waste they are encouraged to consume more. I am at least familiar with arguments against US-style airport security and donating cans of food, but whats wrong with hybrid cars? I don't know of any arguments that they are net neutral / harmful.

In the past, I was bearish on hybrids. They seemed overcomplicated and ineffectual.

After having driven one for a while, I've done a complete 180. The fact is, they're a perfect interim solution which really brings 'the best of both worlds'. One thing I wasn't expecting was how the system trains me to drive differently and minimize wasteful fuel use-- something that simply doesn't exist in non-hybrids. I think they make even more sense for large freight trucks, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of those.

In the U.S., more than half the top-selling vehicles are pure-ICE trucks or SUVs, and I would bet the majority of people buying them don't have a sensible use case. There is plenty of room for hybrids to make a difference. When you can get the same or better performance for half the fuel (or less), it's a no-brainer, and the market will eventually catch up to that.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#52

Post by cperciva » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

rikroots wrote: post #42

cperciva wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried it for many centuries and are still paying the price for that approach today. Can you elaborate on this? I'm not aware of centuries-old landfills clogging up the landscape and (to any meaningful extent) impinging upon the availability of land.

Happily. Old landfill sites are not built to modern standards and are thus liable to erode, with the potential to contaminate the surrounding areas with a range of interesting toxins. They can also collapse (if they contained a significant amount of biodegradable waste) which is unfortunate if your house is built on top of it. A quick Google search gave me this link to some ongoing research conducted by Queen Mary Co…

Ok, but isn't the answer to "old landfill sites are not built to modern standards" that new landfill sites should be built to modern standards?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#53

Post by tasty_freeze » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

JTbane wrote: post #35

My take: Landfills should be utilized much less for municipal waste, but doing this would require much better waste separation. It's probably better to burn or recycle things that don't decompose readily, such as plastic. Landfilling plastics just takes up a lot of space for a long time. Recycling or burning plastic also reduces litter. Recycling paper doesn't matter as much, since it is very biodegradable. I suspect…

There is a lot of talk about sequestering carbon to reduce the problems of increased atmospheric CO2. Burning plastic seems to be the exact opposite of that.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#54

Post by spodek » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

Reducing is strategic.

Reusing and recycling are tactical.

If your strategy is in place, use all the tactics that contribute to it. But if you don't have your strategy in place, tactics can do nothing or even move you backward.

Corporations like recycling because it promotes growth -- the opposite of reduction.

We are stepping on the gas, thinking we're stepping on the brake.

Covered in episode 183 of Leadership and the Environment: http://joshuaspodek.com/guests/rants-raves-monologues-volume...

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#55

Post by dehrmann » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #2

NYC ships its garbage hundreds, and even thousands of miles in some cases: https://www.freshairfortheeastside.com/latestnews/2018/1/22/... There’s even a poop train to Alabama: https://beta.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/04/...

Shipping by rail and sea is incredibly efficient. Some googling tells me rail is 471 ton-miles per gallon. The average American produces 1600 lbs of trash per year, so you can ship one person's trash for a year almost 600 miles with one gallon of fuel. Even long-distance trash transportation is a negligible contributor to someone's oil use.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#56

Post by harimau777 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

Liron wrote: post #30

We really shot ourselves in the foot with this whole pointless "recycling paper and plastic" thing huh? The convenience of throwing something away is a triumph of modern civilization and one of life's little pleasures, and we had to ruin it by acting like it's wrong when it's actually not. When I walk up to some wastebins holding a papery-plasticky object with a bit of food stuck to it, my heart sinks. Now I have to…

So is recycling plastic and paper not effective? I have some anxiety issue and one of the ways that they manifest is obsessing about recycling so not having to worry about plastic and paper would be a huge improvement in my quality of life.

Edit: I should clarify, I realize that the article is saying that recycling plastic and paper isn't worth it, but is that a mainstream opinion?

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#57

Post by gruez » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

JTbane wrote: post #35

My take: Landfills should be utilized much less for municipal waste, but doing this would require much better waste separation. It's probably better to burn or recycle things that don't decompose readily, such as plastic. Landfilling plastics just takes up a lot of space for a long time. Recycling or burning plastic also reduces litter. Recycling paper doesn't matter as much, since it is very biodegradable. I suspect…

>Landfilling plastics just takes up a lot of space for a long time.

Is that really an issue when said space can still be used for parks or other green spaces? Besides, US is a really big place. As long as we're not burying it too close to urban centers it should be fine.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#58

Post by benj111 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #48

Not a single person in the world (rounded down – I’m sure you might be able to find someone) is opposed to people using plastic straws for medical purposes. Just as not a single person in the world is opposed to allowing disabled people access via cars, even if in general cars might not be allowed. These kinds of arguments are such obvious strawmen. I‘m always so confused when people use them, apparently even in good…

The UK is banning straws but will still allow people to buy straws from pharmacies. That seems like a good balance.

Our local high street only allow disabled drivers to park. So the 'pedestrianised' high street is full of the cars of disabled drivers. That doesn't seem to be such a good balance.

Ps I feel there's a good rhyme hiding somewhere with your straw man straw ban.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#59

Post by WheelsAtLarge » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

The real problem is we are using a long term material for short term purposes only because it seems cheap. All plastic will be with us for generations if not forever in terms of human time. We can and should produce an alternative and not poison the environment if we work at it. Yes it's not as bad as we thought but it certainly is bad. Plastic has a place in our daily life but not as a use once and throw away.

I'm one that believes the use of taxes as way to change consumption. So charging a tax to help reflect the true value of plastic, to reduce usages and find alternatives. It's a hard issue but burning it or dumping is not the solution.

Re: Landfill is underrated and recycling overrated

#60

Post by dehrmann » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

guitarbill wrote: post #5

> Plastics come from oil, which we are gradually running out of, though not quickly. I guess it depends on your definition of "quickly", or it would be good to see a citation on this one. Personally, I believe that if we encourage recycling more, that creates an opportunity for companies to innovate in that space and come up with better recycling methods. So in that respect, I'd prefer to over-recycle than under-recy…

Plastics are a negligible use of oil (compared to transportation), oil can be synthesized, and I assume methane feedstock is adequate for making plastics.