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Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

sydney.edu.au

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Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#181

Post by zaroth »

deogeo wrote: post #177
zaroth wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no medical benefit to circumcision. The WHO states, “There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%.”

"...among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa [..] The effectiveness of using circumcision to prevent HIV in the developed world is unclear;"

That’s a quote from Wikipedia where the footnote references an abstract which does not include that statement.

Here’s what the abstract does say;

> Following the three randomized trials in Africa demonstrating the protective effects of male circumcision on HIV infection, studies have reported other benefits of circumcision including protection from certain STIs, including human papillomavirus and herpes simplex virus 2. With data accumulating on the public health benefits of circumcision and the endorsement of circumcision from WHO, investigators have begun to evaluate the feasibility, safety and cost of implementation of large-scale circumcision programs. Limitations of circumcision have also been explored.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#182

Post by zaroth »

DanBC wrote: post #179
zaroth wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no medical benefit to circumcision. The WHO states, “There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%.”

How the fuck is that relevant to pre-pubescent children?

Well, it turns out the protective benefits are rather durable after the procedure is performed.

Similar to the HPV vaccine which is given to 9 year olds, presumably long before they have started having sex.

I’m really not interested in ideological battle here.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#183

Post by hackinthebochs »

Retric wrote: post #170
hackinthebochs wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>by following the same behaviours that they would if they felt pain This is taking the claim I made too far. My point was that reacting to noxious stimuli does not a priori require the conscious experience of pain (which includes a suffering component). When it comes to analyzing sets of possible behaviors, that provides more evidence with which to decide between nociception and pain. I do think that most "animals" (…

They would have to experience some negative stimulus to avoid it. Disagreement with the term pain does not remove the resume that learned avoidance requires detection of a negative stimulus. Further, while we separate negative stimulus into say thirst and pain, the fact you can torture people with either means the difference is ethically more semantic than meaningful.

There is a distinction in biology between sensory perception of noxious stimuli (nociception) and the experience of suffering in response to noxious stimuli. The distinction is in higher order brain processing. An organism does not need to experience suffering to react to noxious stimuli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_reflex

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#184

Post by zaroth »

deogeo wrote: post #180
zaroth wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring a family to wait until a boy is past puberty to consider a circumcision would be harmful, because the procedure is more difficult to perform, and poses a more difficult (and memorable) recovery period. Parents have autonomy to make medical decisions for their infant children, and many are forced to make significantly more difficult decisions than a routine circumcision. I was curious about the CIRP site you…

> Interestingly, they reference a statement from 1996 which is no longer the current position. They reference both current and historical statements, I assume on purpose to show how the position has evolved. For the case of Australia, the newest statement is on top, and the statements are clearly dated, so there is no room to confuse a newer one with an older one. It takes very motivated reasoning to conclude they ar…

I did not see the latest statement on their site! Did I miss it? I have no qualms at all with presenting the historical timeline, as long as the latest factual and science-based statement is included and given the most weight.

It appears the link to the most recent statement is broken (404) which could be why I missed it.

However, the way the timeline is presented also raises eyebrows;

> In September 2002, under the lead of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP), Paediatrics and Child Health Division, six major medical societies of Australasia developed a unified position statement on male circumcision. All six medical societies (...) have now corroborated the Canadian Paediatric Society, declaring that circumcision of newborn males should not be routinely performed. The new statement firmly declares: "There are no medical indications for routine male circumcision." This statement was slightly revised in September 2004. This statement was retired in 2010.

“All six have now corroborated...” is a peculiar way to describe historical statements which are no longer considered medically accurate.

That’s a particularly odd way to conclude that new studies have provided compelling evidence of important health benefits of circumcision in certain contexts.

The fact that many commenters here seem to be entirely unaware that there do exist some demonstrable medical benefits in terms of resistance to and transmission of STDs and STIs reflects this.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#185

Post by deogeo »

zaroth wrote: post #184
deogeo wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interestingly, they reference a statement from 1996 which is no longer the current position. They reference both current and historical statements, I assume on purpose to show how the position has evolved. For the case of Australia, the newest statement is on top, and the statements are clearly dated, so there is no room to confuse a newer one with an older one. It takes very motivated reasoning to conclude they ar…

I did not see the latest statement on their site! Did I miss it? I have no qualms at all with presenting the historical timeline, as long as the latest factual and science-based statement is included and given the most weight. It appears the link to the most recent statement is broken (404) which could be why I missed it. However, the way the timeline is presented also raises eyebrows; > In September 2002, under the…

It.s on top of http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/: Circumcision of Male Infants. Sydney: Royal Australasian College of Physicians, 2010.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#186

Post by DanBC »

zaroth wrote: post #181
deogeo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa [..] The effectiveness of using circumcision to prevent HIV in the developed world is unclear;"

That’s a quote from Wikipedia where the footnote references an abstract which does not include that statement. Here’s what the abstract does say; > Following the three randomized trials in Africa demonstrating the protective effects of male circumcision on HIV infection, studies have reported other benefits of circumcision including protection from certain STIs, including human papillomavirus and herpes simplex virus…

Circumcision does nothing to protect against herpes, hepatitis, chancroid, HPV, Chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis etc.

So the child is being exposed to risk of death or disfigurement for a hypothetical benefit for one STI where there are existing better protections for that, and other STIs.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#187

Post by DanBC »

zaroth wrote: post #182
DanBC wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the fuck is that relevant to pre-pubescent children?

Well, it turns out the protective benefits are rather durable after the procedure is performed. Similar to the HPV vaccine which is given to 9 year olds, presumably long before they have started having sex. I’m really not interested in ideological battle here.

If the benefit exists, which is doubtful, it only exists for one STI and has no protective effect for the rest.

> I’m really not interested in ideological battle here.

You're defending zero-benefit mutilation of children, in the face of overwhelming medical advice. It's hard to see that as anything other than ideological.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#188

Post by dalore »

tzakrajs wrote: post #174
xvector wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ridiculous. This sort of mutilation should be flat out illegal. It’s physical child abuse, plain and simple.

Welcome to overzealous Christian nation which believes that it is their duty to diminish the sexual satisfaction that their congregants may have.

Most now aren't even done for religious purposes but just because everyone else does it.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#189

Post by deogeo »

zaroth wrote: post #181
deogeo wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...among heterosexual men in sub-Saharan Africa [..] The effectiveness of using circumcision to prevent HIV in the developed world is unclear;"

That’s a quote from Wikipedia where the footnote references an abstract which does not include that statement. Here’s what the abstract does say; > Following the three randomized trials in Africa demonstrating the protective effects of male circumcision on HIV infection, studies have reported other benefits of circumcision including protection from certain STIs, including human papillomavirus and herpes simplex virus…

It references an article, not just an abstract. The conclusion of said article reads:

The broader application of this procedure to other areas of the world with different population, infrastructure and disease characteristics warrants further investigation.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#190

Post by dingoegret »

slfnflctd wrote: post #163
jbotz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You feel pain, right? Well, an insect is a lot more like you than a robot... the mechanism by which it it decides what to seek and what to avoid is based on an infrastructure that's very similar to your own, even if much simpler. And the experience of pain appears to be something very fundamental in the wiring of living things, its avoidance being very directly connected to evolutionary success. So it is absolutely l…

This seems like the most rational stance to me now. I had a pastor once attempt to teach me that all animals are basically robots, and that this justifies treating them however we want. In his mind, we're the only ones actually 'awake'. I suspect a whole lot of people think like this on some level in order to justify all the ongoing barbaric treatment they willingly endorse or carry out. Hearing that shook me up for…

What does religion have to do with this? Religion bad?
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