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Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#11

Post by uxp100 »

Couto wrote: post #8
zarathustraa wrote: post #5

In some US cities, San Francisco for example, possession and consumption of drugs is also basically decriminalized, just like in Portugal. You can openly shot it up your veins in front of cops and nothing will happen to you. I look forward to more cities adopting this policy of tacit decriminalization. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jimdalrympleii/public-d... https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/artic…

That's not the same than being decriminalized. In Portugal, if you do that the police will ask you for your ID if it's a light drug like cannabis, or take you to the police center if it's an heavier drug. If you keep being caught by the police a judge can order you to take psychiatric help. Being decriminalized means that you won't be arrested when you ask for help, and you have access to clean syringes to avoid dise…

It seems from this that Portugal is less decriminalized than SF? Which also has clean syringes but the cops will let you shoot up or smoke in peace.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#12

Post by microcolonel »

ahelwer wrote: post #7

But thanks to Reaganomics, prison turned to profits 'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics 'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison You think I am bullshittin', then read the 13th Amendment Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits That's why they givin' drug offenders time in double digits Killer Mike, "Reagan" https://youtube.com/watch?v=6lIqNjC1RKU

> 'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics

it isn't

> 'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison; you think I am bullshittin', then read the 13th Amendment

This is true, they didn't listen when Kanye said it awkwardly, but it's been true the whole time.

> That's why they givin' drug offenders time in double digits

Maaaaybe sometimes, but if you come at it from that perspective you aren't going to convince enough people to change their minds.

The way it's been sold to the public is not from the perspective of benefitting prisons; so you need to address the argument that the public is given: that illicit drugs are so dangerous that the enforcement is worth it.

There are lots of countries without "reaganomics" or any private prisons, which are extremely strict and punitive when it comes to illicit drugs.

It looks like the law is going in the right direction though, the recent sentencing reform has been great, decriminalization (or at least, sentencing/institutions that do more good than harm) should be the next step, but it's not at the top of anyone's platform as far as I can tell.

Added: another story on Hacker News today, related to prison labour in a country which isn't the U.S. (I see absolutely nobody crying foul): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20427122

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#13

Post by kingkawn »

anm89 wrote: post #3
1024core wrote: post #2

> Why hasn’t the world copied it? Because there's too much money* to be made in keeping the status quo. * I use the terms "money" and "power" to mean the same here.

It's unfortunate that this sounds so tin foil hat because it is absolutely true. There is no grand conspiracy to keep drugs illegal. There is a vast, semi well intentioned system built over a century that people adapted to over time to profit off of and now that they are profiting they are not going to give it up easily. Because of the governmental nature of the people who profit they are also very well positioned to…

Never well intentioned. Always exploiting hollow morality to permit the state to commit acts of violence at will against select segments of the population

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#14

Post by icebraining »

anm89 wrote: post #3
1024core wrote: post #2

> Why hasn’t the world copied it? Because there's too much money* to be made in keeping the status quo. * I use the terms "money" and "power" to mean the same here.

It's unfortunate that this sounds so tin foil hat because it is absolutely true. There is no grand conspiracy to keep drugs illegal. There is a vast, semi well intentioned system built over a century that people adapted to over time to profit off of and now that they are profiting they are not going to give it up easily. Because of the governmental nature of the people who profit they are also very well positioned to…

Drugs in Portugal are still illegal, so that doesn't answer the question.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#15

Post by ben-schaaf »

luckylion wrote: post #9
ahelwer wrote: post #7

But thanks to Reaganomics, prison turned to profits 'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics 'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison You think I am bullshittin', then read the 13th Amendment Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits That's why they givin' drug offenders time in double digits Killer Mike, "Reagan" https://youtube.com/watch?v=6lIqNjC1RKU

That may be a big part of the reason in the US, but Germany for example isn't big on decriminalization either, and we don't have anything similar to the US prison complex. I think a large part over here is that people think it's wrong and they don't believe in the individual's right to make a choice they consider wrong. Worldwide it's probably a mix of the two: powerful interests profiteering from the status quo and…

From some quick googling it looks to me like Germany isn't big on decriminalisation because they're already most of the way there:

> In 1994, the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that drug addiction and the possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use were not crimes.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#16

Post by Couto »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #10
Couto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same than being decriminalized. In Portugal, if you do that the police will ask you for your ID if it's a light drug like cannabis, or take you to the police center if it's an heavier drug. If you keep being caught by the police a judge can order you to take psychiatric help. Being decriminalized means that you won't be arrested when you ask for help, and you have access to clean syringes to avoid dise…

While what you're saying is true, I think that's why the world is afraid to adopt Portugal's policy. If getting halfway there is worse than doing nothing at all, it's a very dangerous thing to try.

Just my opinion:

In my experience, when people say drugs they think of cannabis, but cannabis was never the major problem in Portugal.

Our problem was heroin. I think no country will legalize heroin, at least not in the short/medium term.

This is clearly working, one of the major entrypoints of heavy drugs in Europe (Casal Ventoso in Lisbon) is almost clean of problems, there are still heavy drug users of course, but most of the associated violence disappeared.

Even portuguese people's mindset shifted from "junkies" to "people that need help".

So even if you consider a "halfway there" because you're thinking about legalization, this is still working and it's a good middle term to help society shift their mentality.

Disclaimer: I'm talking from my experience as a Portuguese person, not hard numbers. I remember walking in my hometown parks (which is a very small city) and see syringes and drug users everywhere when I was a kid. This doesn't happen anymore.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#17

Post by lostmymind66 »

Because Portugal doesn't have countries like Mexico bordering it that will use the legal drug trade to further fund cartel violence and control over the country. Corruption is already so rampant, they need to fix their problems before we should ever think about legalizing all drugs.

We already have an Opioid crises in the US..and this is with legal drugs. Lawmakers are already starting to blame the legal drug dealers and creators for getting people addicted.

If drugs are legalized, a person shouldn't be able to sue the dealer or creator. In the US, it seems like the attitude is "my body, my choice". Until that choice has negative consequences and then the person with the biggest wallet is sued for damages.

I don't really see happening in Portugal.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#18

Post by crdoconnor »

anm89 wrote: post #3
1024core wrote: post #2

> Why hasn’t the world copied it? Because there's too much money* to be made in keeping the status quo. * I use the terms "money" and "power" to mean the same here.

It's unfortunate that this sounds so tin foil hat because it is absolutely true. There is no grand conspiracy to keep drugs illegal. There is a vast, semi well intentioned system built over a century that people adapted to over time to profit off of and now that they are profiting they are not going to give it up easily. Because of the governmental nature of the people who profit they are also very well positioned to…

It's not just that though. It's also seen as a way of criminalising undesirables.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#20

Post by [deleted] »

microcolonel wrote: post #12
ahelwer wrote: post #7

But thanks to Reaganomics, prison turned to profits 'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics 'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison You think I am bullshittin', then read the 13th Amendment Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits That's why they givin' drug offenders time in double digits Killer Mike, "Reagan" https://youtube.com/watch?v=6lIqNjC1RKU

> 'Cause free labor's the cornerstone of US economics it isn't > 'Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison; you think I am bullshittin', then read the 13th Amendment This is true, they didn't listen when Kanye said it awkwardly, but it's been true the whole time. > That's why they givin' drug offenders time in double digits Maaaaybe sometimes, but if you come at it from that perspective you aren't going…

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