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Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

sydney.edu.au

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Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#151
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brian Tomasik argues that we should avoid insect farming entirely since it's likely worse (ethically speaking) than farming larger nonhuman animals: > Entomophagy (eating insects for food) is sometimes proposed as an alternative to factory farming because it has lower environmental impact. But entomophagy is not necessarily more humane than factory farming of livestock all things considered, and along some dimensions…

That makes the silly assumption that all organisms are equal. I'm sure we can all agree that a human's life is more valuable than a bacterium's. Or else you'd have to admit to genocide every time you use hand sanitizer.

> That makes the silly assumption that all organisms are equal

Where does it do that?

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#153
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (and Occam's razor) would say the exact opposite - one should assume the effect will be the similar as for an older human, unless proven otherwise. Otherwise you're making the unproven assumption that an infant's mind responds to pain differently - why would you think that? And which other subgroups of humans could you make evidence-free assumptions that they are different from the default (however chosen) human?

> It's totally realistic to assume that a human will have to suffer psychologically even decades later from a psychological scarring caused by such surgery without anesthesia. That’s what OP said, emphasis mine. I agree with you: that infants experience pain in the same way as adults should be the default hypothesis. That they remain psychologically scarred by it for decades, however, should not be.

Why not? The obvious difference is that an adults nervous system is developed while an infant's is still developing.

"Early life stress may have a lasting impact on the developmental programming of the dopamine (DA) system implicated in psychosis." [1]

I highly recommend Gabor Maté's book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" for a deeper discussion of how various types of pre- and postnatal stress impact a person's proclivity towards addictive behavior and ADHD.

But even for adults extreme and overwhelming stressful experiences can cause long-lasting and even multigenerational psychological consequences through epigenetic mechanisms.

1: https://lirias.kuleuven.be/648892?limo=0

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#154
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I understand that this procedure will remove healthy and functioning tissue from my son's penis, and involves similar risk as other prophylactic or cosmetic surgeries, including infection, disfigurement, and death. I understand that the procedure may be performed without anaesthesia at the doctor's discretion. I understand that the doctor has recommended my son undergo circumcision because studies have shown a reduc…

> the doctor has recommended my son undergo circumcision because studies have shown a reduction in the risk for serious diseases in circumcised men Source? Especially that this risk reduction outweighs the risks of the procedure is not proven as far as I know.

https://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#155
post #128
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ridiculous. This sort of mutilation should be flat out illegal. It’s physical child abuse, plain and simple.

It's not as horrible as you make it out to be. I was circumcised. In fact, I didn't even realize I was until I was much older, I just thought that's the way things were down there. Once I learned, I didn't care. Everything's fine. Everyone makes it out like it's torture; it's not. You can't even remember it. I have no deep trauma, no lingering issues. I'm just a normal boring guy, kind of like most guys who are circu…

[deleted]

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#156

This makes me feel even more terrible about burning spiders to death with a magnifying glass when I was a kid.

I also am feeling quite guilty reading this. I think every kid in the midwest pulled a leg off a daddy long legs[1] at some point. They would keep moving afterwards, and to a kid this was fascinating (and reinforced the belief they were not like animals and could not feel pain.) Regardless, now that I'm older I think most living things have a purpose and try not to bother anything that doesn't bother me, but yes, rea…

I never pulled legs off arthropods, nor did I ever use magnifying glasses to burn them. I did witness other children doing these things, and it always upset me intensely.

I'm probably an outlier. My mother tells me that from the time I could walk I captured bugs in the house and carried them outside to prevent them being killed.

I've continued the habit of rescuing animals from bad situations into adulthood and rapidly-oncoming old age. Once I caught a hummingbird in an Apple building in Cupertino and let it go outside. It was a beautiful iridescent green and so light that I couldn't feel its weight in my hand.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#157
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an insect is a lot more like you than a robot If you mean that insects are more similar to humans than they are to robots, I'm actually not convinced. When we are deciding what kind of mental mechanism to attribute to insects to explain their behaviour, there are two desiderata we need to satisfy: - Our hypothesis has to be strong enough to explain the behaviour - It has to be plausible given insect hardware YeGobl…

1. Most neural network architectures have fewer "neurons" than 10^5. Maybe the word you are looking for is "parameters" 2. A neuron in the brain and a neuron in a neural network are totally different things.

> 1. Most neural network architectures have fewer "neurons" than 10^5. Maybe the word you are looking for is "parameters"

That's a fair point, I shouldn't have said "typically." But some of the larger models probably have that many linear filters.

> 2. A neuron in the brain and a neuron in a neural network are totally different things.

There are certainly disanalogies between biological neurons and neurons in a vanilla feed-forward network, but A) there are analogies as well and B) a lot of interesting work is being done to make deep learning models stdp compatible.

At any rate, I think it's a reasonable claim that an insect brain has representational power closer to a SOTA ANN than it does to a human brain (though I welcome anyone here who knows about biologically plausible deep learning and/or insect brains to prove me wrong)

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#158
post #95

I didn't realise the impact until I remembered how common circumcision is in the US.

It’s ridiculous. This sort of mutilation should be flat out illegal. It’s physical child abuse, plain and simple.

Oof the circumcision topic, this is one where everyone argues for however their own personal penis looks and reasons backward from that.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#159
post #128
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ridiculous. This sort of mutilation should be flat out illegal. It’s physical child abuse, plain and simple.

It's not as horrible as you make it out to be. I was circumcised. In fact, I didn't even realize I was until I was much older, I just thought that's the way things were down there. Once I learned, I didn't care. Everything's fine. Everyone makes it out like it's torture; it's not. You can't even remember it. I have no deep trauma, no lingering issues. I'm just a normal boring guy, kind of like most guys who are circu…

Circumcised man here. It has not caused me any inconvenience. I find the tradition barbaric. I am philosophically opposed to the surgery on the grounds that it amounts to unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a non-consenting infant for the sake of tradition. Now you know a circumcised man that cares.

Re: Insects feel persistent pain after injury, evidence suggests

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand the insistence of the article to place quotes around the word pain when referring to what insects feel. These are animals that can sense their surroundings and react to stimuli. How else would they be convinced to avoid dangerous situations, than by an unpleasant sensation? If you build a robot which senses dangerous stimuli and avoids them, does it feel pain? Equating reaction to stimuli with pa…

>> Equating reaction to stimuli with pain is too sinplistic. Just to clarify this- my comment says that animals react to stimuli and that pain is a stimulus that they use to avoid dangerous situations (or behaviours). Not that reaction to stimuli entails the ability to feel pain. So I'm asking: if (some) animals don't feel pain, then how do they know to avoid dangerous behaviours? What is the mechanism that keeps the…

> if (some) animals don't feel pain, then how do they know to avoid dangerous behaviours? What is the mechanism that keeps them from, say, jumping into the fire?

This is exactly why the robot analogy originally raised by Hendrikto is so powerful. Robots/neural nets/etc illustrate that it is possible for an agent to avoid dangerous behaviours without being motivated by feelings.

I agree that this doesn't prove that insects don't have feelings - it shows that an agent doesn't need to be conscious to exhibit these sorts of behaviours.

Where I disagree is your claim that it has no bearing at all on the argument. It does bear on the argument, because it presents an alternative hypothesis that doesn't involve attributing mental life to insects. Very (very) roughly speaking the alternative is something like "an insect brain is a neural network, which, while not created by conscious designer, was chiseled by evolution to respond to stimuli in such a way that dangerous behaviours are avoided - in much the same way that an atari-playing artificial neural network trained by reinforcement learning avoids dangerous behaviours that will end the game - and just like the ANN playing atari, no consciousness is required - just the right model parameters. And similarly, no conscious designer ever explicitly told the neural network what to do. The programmer just set up the right incentives, in the same way that nature set up the right incentives for the insect."

I can see the arguments on both sides, but I think the "insects are kinda like robots" hypothesis is more plausible because an insect brain has a more similar number of model parameters to a deep q learning network than it does to a human brain.

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