Palantir’s User Manual for Cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#151

Post by P_I_Staker » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

cannonedhamster wrote: post #57

_iyig wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

Much of what they are doing stretches and very likely breaks constitutionality. The fact that they can track you without any probable cause for any amount of time and then store that information means that essentially they no longer have to get warrants, meaning there is no oversight, on anyone they want as long as they claim it's related to a case. That's absolutely wrong. No one wants gang members running around sh…

> very likely breaks constitutionality... they can track you without any probable cause... they no longer have to get warrants.

Does anything in Palantir's database require a warrant? Law enforcement can absolutely follow your car without a warrant, check if you've come up on a license plate reader, call another department and see if they have your phone number, list of associates, ect. Point being, police don't need a warrant to investigate you. I don't know if they even need reasonable suspicion or probable cause. You might be able to claim harassment if they interfere with your life. Otherwise, constitutional protections apply to restricting your freedom (eg. detaining/arresting you), ceasing/searching your property, and monitoring your private life (eg wiretaps, bugs, ect). It seems like what Palantir's doing is making it easier for departments to share information that would normally require lots of digging.

I'm not defending the practice at all. I despise this kind of mass surveillance, and am particularly concerned that it's being done in secret. My opinion is that we don't have enough, or practically any, privacy protections in the USA; at least on public property. Might sound like a contradiction, but we spend much of our lives in public, and shouldn't have to hide in our homes to prevent mass surveillance. I don't think the constitution goes far enough to protect us anymore. The founding fathers could not even imagine the world we live in today. Even George Orwell couldn't conceive of the capabilities we have today when he wrote 1984. Yet we've done close to nothing to rein in these capabilities, and all the movement is in the wrong direction.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#152

Post by zymhan » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #127

zymhan wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exact issue was pointed out many times with automated license plate scanning came into existence. Is it really Palantir's fault for making software to aggregate the data? In my view it is our fault as citizens for allowing the government to collect such data in the first place. Any other company with enough developers and data scientists can do what Palantir does. It's the massive amount of information their sof…

That’s like asking if it’s really a murderer’s fault for pulling the trigger of a gun manufactured by someone else. Yes, it absolutely is their fault and no, “if they didn’t, someone else would” is not a valid moral excuse, ever.

Who is the murderer in this analogy? To me it's the government misusing such a tool.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#153

Post by masonic » Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #147

elbasti wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe a [citation needed] is required for the claim that US immigration policy is "internationally conventional". There is of course enormous variance in how countries handle immigration, but the ethical and conventional policy could be summarized as: 1. Border enforcement. Ie, try to prevent people from entering illegally 2. Tolerance for those who are illegally present (2) Means that a person who emigrated ille…

> 2. Tolerance for those who are illegally present I don't think this is true in any other country than USA, and it is only true in USA due to States not being allowed to enact their own immigration laws. California is very tolerant of illegal immigrants since according to them they are not really illegal. In most countries it works like this: People arrive to a country, as soon as it is noticed that they are illegal…

  I don't think this is true in any other country than USA

Are you unaware that a majority of refugee applicants in Sweden (for one example) are ultimately deported?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#154

Post by username90 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:12 AM UTC

masonic wrote: post #153

username90 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Tolerance for those who are illegally present I don't think this is true in any other country than USA, and it is only true in USA due to States not being allowed to enact their own immigration laws. California is very tolerant of illegal immigrants since according to them they are not really illegal. In most countries it works like this: People arrive to a country, as soon as it is noticed that they are illegal…

I don't think this is true in any other country than USA Are you unaware that a majority of refugee applicants in Sweden (for one example) are ultimately deported ?

I am from Sweden, so yes I am aware how it works. Sweden doesn't tolerate undocumented immigrants. What happens is that people arrive, they get documented, then after a while they get either get deported or get allowed to stay. Having undocumented immigrants never makes sense ever in my opinion.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#155

Post by mdorazio » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC

zymhan wrote: post #152

mdorazio wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s like asking if it’s really a murderer’s fault for pulling the trigger of a gun manufactured by someone else. Yes, it absolutely is their fault and no, “if they didn’t, someone else would” is not a valid moral excuse, ever.

Who is the murderer in this analogy? To me it's the government misusing such a tool.

Palantir. The government is the gun manufacturer collecting all the needed data in various places.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#156

Post by zymhan » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #155

zymhan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is the murderer in this analogy? To me it's the government misusing such a tool.

Palantir. The government is the gun manufacturer collecting all the needed data in various places.

Why though? Palantir isn't the one using the tools for ill. The government is collecting the information and using it, possibly, to violate civil liberties and constitutional rights.

What can Palantir do to you?

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#157

Post by JudasGoat » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #68

_iyig wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American citizen who is happy to see the law enforced. I don't live in Atherton or Palo Alto. There were two Central American gang-related shootings near my family's home last week; there were two MS-13 murders in the broader area earlier this year. I grew up here, and it didn't used to be like this. I want to see those who come here illegally, or who have been denied refugee status as the result of due proces…

The fact is that human rights violations and child abuse are happening now. Here is one recent example from DHS' own inspector-general: https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2019-07/O... Take a look at the pictures and pretend it's your family members. Still proud?

As someone that has been incarcerated, I would be instigating a riot in those conditions.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#158

Post by rjurney » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #142

akiselev wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd be surprised how fast the companies hiring all those workers would go bankrupt, leaving the United States without an agricultural industry (which is as critical to national security as the rule of law). Americans are, on the whole, unwilling to pay the prices required to provide people with a living wage and proper labor protections.

Labor is only a small percent of agricultural costs. They could profitably pay pickers far more without a substantial increase in food prices.

US citizens never stay past lunch at any of the farms doing picking. The work is too hard, nobody here wants it.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#159

Post by rjurney » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #63

rjurney wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is most people that want undocumented immigrants deported don't actually want them deported. They just want them to be an underclass available for cheap labor and keep their mouths shut. Undocumented workers are essential to the economy and the same people that hate them hire them. If you want rule of law, provide work permits and a path to citizenship. Immigrants of all variety aren't going away. We need…

They are essential to the economy because American employers can pay below-market wages for back-breaking labor. I'd prefer to make such practices illegal, rather than continually subjecting undocumented immigrants to awful working conditions with no healthcare or legal recourse in cases of abuse. If a concerted effort was made to improve the lives of such workers, I think you'd be surprised how quickly Americans wou…

The work is so back breaking that no US citizens want the work. They get easier jobs. I heard interviews with a couple of farmers, no US citizens had ever come back after lunch.

Re: Palantir’s User Manual for Cops

#160

Post by siphon22 » Mon, Jul 15, 2019, 8:58 PM UTC

rjurney wrote: post #159

_iyig wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are essential to the economy because American employers can pay below-market wages for back-breaking labor. I'd prefer to make such practices illegal, rather than continually subjecting undocumented immigrants to awful working conditions with no healthcare or legal recourse in cases of abuse. If a concerted effort was made to improve the lives of such workers, I think you'd be surprised how quickly Americans wou…

The work is so back breaking that no US citizens want the work. They get easier jobs. I heard interviews with a couple of farmers, no US citizens had ever come back after lunch.

Do you know if they were paid a wage worthy of destroying your back for? Or is it in our best interest to subject brown people to slave tier labor for little pay?