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Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

sciencemag.org

411–420 of 432 posts

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wholesale price is definitely not “zero”. It fluctuates wildly, and if a retailer is exposed to the real time market at the flow date, they can expect to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. RTM prices can easily spike from $50/MW to $8000/MW in an instant if a generator trips. So, retailers buy hedges to cover this risk, at price premiums that reflect the inherent exposure insurance.

I didn't know this, thanks for clarifying. Further investigation for my local area: Here's a link to the Australian wholesale spot price and peak price https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Mar... Where I live, Tasmania, the average for 2019 is $147.91 / MWh and the peak is $163. That works out to Au$0.163. I pay AU$0.26 / kWh, plus a daily supply charge of, if memory serves me correctly, $2.30 - t…

Here the connection charge is less than $0.50 a day and electric is $0.095 per kWh.

(those are the retail prices for a small US town that isn't particularly close to any power plant)

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#412
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An undervalued aspect of distributed rooftop solar is the resilience of it in face of grid breakdown, either intentionally through targeted attack or as a result of systemic collapse.

Most rooftop solar installations don't work if the grid is down. Yes, it's doable but costs more so the vast majority of installations skip that part.

True for now, but house batteries are gaining traction.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#413
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd be surprised how cheap land can get outside of cities.

But then you get increased losses when transporting the energy into the city, plus the costs for the distribution infrastructure. Rooftop solar tied to the grid can be used by your neighbours when you aren't using it, which means almost no transport loss, not even crossing a transformer.

Sure. I was responding to a comment saying the reason rooftop solar makes sense is the sunk cost in the land overwhich the roof lives. Rooftop Solar make a lot of sense, but probably the main reason is the electricity generated does not come with the cost of having to maintain a hugely expensive grid.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#414
post #384

Much better than batteries or gravity storage mechanisms is liquid air storage. It is not for small scale sites, but the bigger, the more economical, it becomes. As an OTS (off the shelf) solution i do not know why it is not used more... Liquid air storage offers cheapest route to 24 hour wind and solar https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20424313

It's often not very efficient in terms of getting back the energy you put in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_energy_storage#Effic...

Great review! Yes both the review and the recent article i cited mention the use of hot and/or/both cold sources to boost efficiency. with high grades of both one can approach 100% Even low grade (AKA heat pump type) sources boost well.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#415
post #84

I’ve always wondered about something, yet have never found anyone discussing it online. So maybe some smart people can help me out: a lot of people install solar on their rooftops. Much of the time this is done with the assumption that it will pay off financially because energy prices are currently at a certain rate and will continue to rise. But here’s my question: If its financially advantageous to install solar on…

You're assuming improvements in efficiency will necessarily lead to a decrease in cost. The Jevons paradox tells us that this increase in efficiency may well lead to more demand instead.

I'm not sure that ends up disproving predictions of lower cost. By the Jevons paradox, more efficient steam engines led to steam-based eneegy being cheaper (you need less coal per unit of mechanical power), but people kept paying about the same in total- just using more mechanical energy. So the equivalent would surely be electricity costs dropping, and people using more power (air conditioning, etc.)

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#416
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could, but then the costs will just be passed down to the tenants (i.e. increased rent).

Even with the cost of insulation upgrades added to the rent, that's still cheaper total.

Depends on how much the costs of insulation upgrades are blown out of proportion by being mandated.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#417
An alternative perspecrive from a physicist/enginner/venture capitalist who was named Energy Writer of the Year" in 2016 by the American Energy Society.

This paper highlights the physics of energy to illustrate why there is no possibility that the world is undergoing—or can undergo—a near-term transition to a “new energy economy.”

Among the reasons:

    Scientists have yet to discover, and entrepreneurs have yet to invent, anything as remarkable as hydrocarbons in terms of the combination of low-cost, high-energy density, stability, safety, and portability. In practical terms, this means that spending $1 million on utility-scale wind turbines, or solar panels will each, over 30 years of operation, produce about 50 million kilowatt-hours (kWh)—while an equivalent $1 million spent on a shale rig produces enough natural gas over 30 years to generate over 300 million kWh.
    Solar technologies have improved greatly and will continue to become cheaper and more efficient. But the era of 10-fold gains is over. The physics boundary for silicon photovoltaic (PV) cells, the Shockley-Queisser Limit, is a maximum conversion of 34% of photons into electrons; the best commercial PV technology today exceeds 26%.
    Wind power technology has also improved greatly, but here, too, no 10-fold gains are left. The physics boundary for a wind turbine, the Betz Limit, is a maximum capture of 60% of kinetic energy in moving air; commercial turbines today exceed 40%.
    The annual output of Tesla’s Gigafactory, the world’s largest battery factory, could store three minutes’ worth of annual U.S. electricity demand. It would require 1,000 years of production to make enough batteries for two days’ worth of U.S. electricity demand. Meanwhile, 50–100 pounds of materials are mined, moved, and processed for every pound of battery produced.
Heres's a link to his full paper: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/green-energy-revolution-...

Whose argument holds up to serious critical analysis, Mills or Science Mag's?

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#418
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be also more focus on proper thermal insulation of houses in warm climate, which is something that is not often mentioned. Lots of energy gets lost on AC simply because heat easily enters the houses.

Yeah I'm renting a house in central NC and May-September our power bill skyrockets from AC. The windows are not insulated at all and we have a lot of them. Even the floors, walls, and ceilings leak heat like crazy, you can feel it just putting your hand close to the wall or ceiling. We run AC to get it down to 76F and it's still crazy expensive and using a lot of unnecessary power. We need to encourage insulation, es…

For me personally, 76°F (24.4°C) is kinda cold. I'd turn it up to 86°F (30°C) and make use of fans (or just use only fans, no AC). Probably, better to transition slowly, like 1° a day. Some people, of course, are less tolerant to heat, but I don't think I'm far from average. Just make sure you are dressed as light (or scanty) as possible.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm renting a house in central NC and May-September our power bill skyrockets from AC. The windows are not insulated at all and we have a lot of them. Even the floors, walls, and ceilings leak heat like crazy, you can feel it just putting your hand close to the wall or ceiling. We run AC to get it down to 76F and it's still crazy expensive and using a lot of unnecessary power. We need to encourage insulation, es…

I come from a country where climate is very similar to what Chicago has,so to read that people use AC for heating is quite fascinating! I agree that houses shouldn't be built like in "The Three Little Pigs"...

AC (and heat pumps in general) is great for heating, it can be way more power efficient than anything else. I mean, in theory, its efficiency can be way higher than 100%. But that's only when it's not too cold outside (I guess, at least above zero). You can consider using it in spring & autumn periods.

Re: Giant batteries and cheap solar power are shoving fossil fuels off the grid

#420
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government should enforce energy efficient building standards and tax those who don’t comply.

New building standards don't affect existing buildings. And they're not optional, so the tax isn't an option for non-compliance. Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes, so it certainly isn't going to happen for energy efficiency. And calling for this to now be a thing, well, I can't think of a better way to get entrenched interests to suddenly lobby hard a…

> New building standards don't affect existing buildings.

No, but habitability standards do (or, technically, in general affect the legal ability to charge rent for units in existing buildings.) So, user those of your concern is recalcitrant landlords.

> Forcing existing landlords to retrofit to new building standards isn't even done for safety purposes

Yes, this is done (not always, but it does happen), through habitability standards beifn updated along with building standards (or referencing them.)

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