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Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

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Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#51

Post by whycombagator »

osrec wrote: post #28

Strange article. The point around controlling only 50% - what the heck does that even mean?! As a tennis player, you know there are many variables at play in each rally. This sort of simplistic analysis tells us pretty much nothing. In my opinion, Nadal is great on clay because of his tenacity and ability to play the big points well. The slowness of the court helps him too as it prevents people hitting through him (I…

> He also has a very reliable 2 handed backhand

I've not analyzed it in depth, but against Federer on grass the other day he avoided hitting his backhand A LOT. It was as if only 20% of the court was in play for his backhand. His forehand is absolutely excellent, so perhaps that's part of it.

I'd have to watch him on clay again (haven't in a while) to see if the slower court means he can avoid hitting that backhand even more/more easily

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#52

Post by osrec »

whycombagator wrote: post #51
osrec wrote: post #28

Strange article. The point around controlling only 50% - what the heck does that even mean?! As a tennis player, you know there are many variables at play in each rally. This sort of simplistic analysis tells us pretty much nothing. In my opinion, Nadal is great on clay because of his tenacity and ability to play the big points well. The slowness of the court helps him too as it prevents people hitting through him (I…

> He also has a very reliable 2 handed backhand I've not analyzed it in depth, but against Federer on grass the other day he avoided hitting his backhand A LOT. It was as if only 20% of the court was in play for his backhand. His forehand is absolutely excellent, so perhaps that's part of it. I'd have to watch him on clay again (haven't in a while) to see if the slower court means he can avoid hitting that backhand e…

Federer was ripping his backhand to Rafa's forehand - this is not what Federer usually does, and it unsettled Rafa. On grass, a ripped single handed backhand zips through the court and is hard to deal with.

Rafa usually runs round anything to his backhand so he can hit up the line to Fed's backhand (Fed's "weakness"). Yesterday this wasn't working due to the quality of Federer's backhand.

In all Federer was just playing too well yesterday - great game plan, executed very well. Rafa couldn't play his normal game against Federer's variety.

But great match overall. Can't believe they play like this at their age.

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#53

Post by srib »

ctchocula wrote: post #45
srib wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked piece is excellent. I had not read it before. Thank you sharing it!

If you liked that piece, you will like David Foster Wallace's other piece on tennis as well [1]. It discusses how difficult it is to make it as a tennis pro. [1] https://www.esquire.com/sports/a5151/the-string-theory-david...

This is a terrific piece as well. Thank you!

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#54

Post by goatlover »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25
goatlover wrote: post #18

Djokovic has a case for best tennis player ever with his winning record head to head over Federer and Nadal. Federer has a losing record against both. He racked up a lot of his titles before Nadal and Djokovic became world champion players. Of course Nadal is best on clay.

Federer is significantly (5/6 years) older than Nadal and Djokovic, which makes it difficult to compare them in "all time" terms based on head-to-head results.

Federer and Djokovic have played 47 times and 15 times in grand slams. That ties Djokovic-Nadal for most ever grand slam meetings. That should be enough head to head to make a comparison.

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#55

Post by 3131s »

crusso wrote: post #43

"Players’ speed matters more on clay than other courts, and Nadal is the fastest on tour" That's an odd thing to say. I would think that Djokovic is the fastest of the major players.

Not in Nadal's prime, but maybe now.

The primary reason is that Nadal simply generates more topspin, which has been known for a long time, and the spin of the ball has more impact on a clay court. Nadal's grip is "full western" while Federer and Djokovic both have more traditional forehand grips.

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#56

Post by 3131s »

It's all in the spin, and to a lesser extent Nadal's speed and mobility on clay. A high RPM top spin shot will kick forward and bounce high on clay to a greater extent than on a hard court, and it's extremely hard to deal with.

I have hit with some pro tour players on clay, once even a former world #1 player, and it's near impossible to play offensively against their spin unless you want to take every ball on the rise.

Also Nadal's flat serve is probably the weakest of the 3 greats, but the importance of a good flat serve is somewhat de-emphasized on clay.

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#57

Post by whycombagator »

osrec wrote: post #52
whycombagator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He also has a very reliable 2 handed backhand I've not analyzed it in depth, but against Federer on grass the other day he avoided hitting his backhand A LOT. It was as if only 20% of the court was in play for his backhand. His forehand is absolutely excellent, so perhaps that's part of it. I'd have to watch him on clay again (haven't in a while) to see if the slower court means he can avoid hitting that backhand e…

Federer was ripping his backhand to Rafa's forehand - this is not what Federer usually does, and it unsettled Rafa. On grass, a ripped single handed backhand zips through the court and is hard to deal with. Rafa usually runs round anything to his backhand so he can hit up the line to Fed's backhand (Fed's "weakness"). Yesterday this wasn't working due to the quality of Federer's backhand. In all Federer was just play…

It was certainly an epic game.

From what I witnessed, at times, Nadal was actively running around shots placed to his backhand. These were shots placed towards, almost, the corner of the court - perfect for a backhand reply, yet he was still trying to hit forehands. Sometimes it worked out quite well for him, other times not so much

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#59

Post by frereubu »

brandnewlow wrote: post #42
frereubu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just love this bit: 'And there’s that familiar little second of shocked silence from the New York crowd before it erupts, and John McEnroe with his color man’s headset on TV says (mostly to himself, it sounds like), "How do you hit a winner from that position?" And he’s right: given Agassi’s position and world-class quickness, Federer had to send that ball down a two-inch pipe of space in order to pass him, which h…

It's a tremendous piece of writing I've enjoyed many times over over the years but a troubling one. As best I can tell, this is the actual shot described in the excerpt you quoted. It's great but perhaps DFW embellished a bit in the retelling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDwG5rJVtdc One writer reconsiders the piece: https://theoutline.com/post/7424/david-foster-wallace-roger-...

Yeah, I'd tracked that down as well, but one reason to be lenient perhaps is that he was writing before everything was available on YouTube, and was probably just going on memory, which is easy to unintentionally embellish over the years. Thanks for the link to the article of responses - looks interesting.

Re: Why Nadal is unbeatable on clay

#60

Post by xbmcuser »

whycombagator wrote: post #57
osrec wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Federer was ripping his backhand to Rafa's forehand - this is not what Federer usually does, and it unsettled Rafa. On grass, a ripped single handed backhand zips through the court and is hard to deal with. Rafa usually runs round anything to his backhand so he can hit up the line to Fed's backhand (Fed's "weakness"). Yesterday this wasn't working due to the quality of Federer's backhand. In all Federer was just play…

It was certainly an epic game. From what I witnessed, at times, Nadal was actively running around shots placed to his backhand. These were shots placed towards, almost, the corner of the court - perfect for a backhand reply, yet he was still trying to hit forehands. Sometimes it worked out quite well for him, other times not so much

To me Nadal's greatest strength is keeping the ball in play most players are not that consistent so make the error in long rallies and give him the point. Djokovic and Fedrer don't so he has to go for winners against them where when he hits good he beats when he doesn't he looses. In the semi he won the 2nd set when Fedrer started making errors. In 2nd and third Fedrer cut down on his errors and made Nadal go for winners which Nadal wasn't able to.
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