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Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

latimes.com

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Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#51

Post by dbmueller »

jhbadger wrote: post #36
jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

I would imagine that Elsevier would argue that they (and their fellow for-profit journal publishers) are providing a valuable service of being the gatekeepers of scientific knowledge and without them science would collapse in a chaos of confusion and misinformation. (Not that I really believe that's the case; things like ArXiv show that science can work without the involvement of journals open or closed at all, but t…

I'm not sure arXiv is an example of doing without journals. arXiv doesn't involve peer review, so that any result published there are to be taken with a big grain of salt.

On the other hand, there are open access journals that essentially act as a layer above arXiv, so that the main added value is review.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#52

Post by xamuel »

titanomachy wrote: post #46
xamuel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly steelman, but something you'll want to be aware of if you're going to be debating in this area: The publishers have attempted (and mostly succeeded) to poison the well by equating true open access (free to read, free to publish) with their garbage version of open access (free to read, $3000+ to publish). Once again demonstrating the power of controlling the language. It's going to be a tough battle as lon…

So you're not a fan of PLoS? I always thought their model seemed fair.

PLoS is less egregious since they "only" charge $1600 and waive it for authors who can't afford it. With Elsevier/Springer on the other hand, the author has to opt-in and pay about twice that amount or more, no waiver in sight. Of course, even $1600 is fantastic highway robbery for what you're paying for, which is essentially to store a static document on their website. (These days, most authors already prepare camera-ready copies of their submissions, and the additional edits journals make are often a net harm.)

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#53

Post by TehCorwiz »

apo wrote: post #45
jimbob45 wrote: post #26

Can anyone steelman the Elsevier side? I don't want to be caught in the headlights of I have to debate this.

Elsevier owns copyrighted material, which it licenses to individuals and institutions for a fee. The fee is negotiated on a case-by-case basis, which is no different than any other intellectual property such as movies, music, books, or software. If a customer is unable or unwilling to pay the prevailing rate, then no access will be granted. The argument that Elsevier uses unpaid academic labor and therefore should fa…

It's not unpaid academic labor, it's actually exploitative labor. They charge the academics ~$3000 - 5000 to publish via any of their journals.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#54

Post by gumby »

titanomachy wrote: post #46
xamuel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly steelman, but something you'll want to be aware of if you're going to be debating in this area: The publishers have attempted (and mostly succeeded) to poison the well by equating true open access (free to read, free to publish) with their garbage version of open access (free to read, $3000+ to publish). Once again demonstrating the power of controlling the language. It's going to be a tough battle as lon…

So you're not a fan of PLoS? I always thought their model seemed fair.

Good question. COnsider:

First, PLoS fees are lower and as a nonprofit only have to support operation (no profit). Also as a nonprofit there is some transparency as to where those fees go, so I assume that publishing there really does cost something like $1600.

Second PLoS's fee rules include the sentence "Authors' ability to pay publication fees will never be a consideration in the decision whether to publish."

Elsevier's "unfair advantage" (something we're supposed to look for on HN) or IP is their ownership of journals that acquired renown over decades. Publication in those journals as opposed to others has, depending on your field, tremendous effect on tenure and grant opportunities. It takes a long time to transfer that repetitional benefit to other institutions like PLoS.

That's why physics (with a more fluid tradition of journal bona fides and a wider use of preprints and passing papers around) was the pioneer field for open access and the like while, say, medicinal chemistry has been a laggard in this area. Doesn't mean the researchers want it that way, but those cultural traditions take a while to change.

If UCB and some other high profile institutions (I'm looking at you, MIT!) can declare a policy away from these journals it will provide cover to allow others to do the same.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#55

Post by titanomachy »

hirundo wrote: post #32
hyperbovine wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why do commenters here frequently seem to bear a chip on their shoulder when it comes to institutions of higher learning?

An attempt at an honest answer: In my case it's related to the continual drumbeat of news stories that seems to show them being transformed from bastions of free inquiry into centers of political indoctrination. It's been reinforced in the last couple of years by a friend who sent his sweet, friendly, apolitical hard working daughter to a liberal arts college, and she returned as a politicized tattooed pierced foul m…

Thanks for sharing your experience.

I went to a rather liberal university recently and while the community and ideology you describe did exist, it always seemed to be on the fringe a bit (if very loud). For the most part, people were focused on working hard at school or sex and partying rather than engaging in fringe politics.

Some young people need to rebel for a bit. People's views usually moderate a bit a few years out, just with life experience.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#56

Post by apo »

The model Elsevier operates on is under attack from a number of sides. In addition to UC, there is Plan S:

> The plan requires scientists and researchers who benefit from state-funded research organisations and institutions to publish their work in open repositories or in journals that are available to all by 2021.[4] The "S" stands for "shock".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_S

The plan is backed by a wide range of European groups.

Elsevier may have a right to license its content as it sees fit, but the market as turned against its business model. The company now must decide whether to go down fighting or acknowledge the inevitable.

An of course, there's the ever present Sci-Hub, which presents a comprehensive selection of research papers far better than Elsevier ever did - and at no cost to the reader.

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#58

Post by titanomachy »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #34
knolax wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is programming is one of the rare white-collar jobs where a non-negligible amount of people don't have college degrees. So there's some resentment/contempt/regrets from seeing people who spent massive amounts of money and four years of their lives end up doing the same quality work as highschool drop-outs.

Do the bootcamp graduates really believe they'll be Senior Architect 10 years down the line? They'll be in for a surprise.

10 years is more than enough time to learn all the CS you missed out on in school, and then some. And architecure is learned more on the job than in school anyway.

I went to a bootcamp and it doesn't seem to be holding me back too much. Still moving up the ranks in FANG just like everyone else. I don't feel academically inferior to my colleagues, most of them have gradually forgotten most of what they learned in college anyway. And teaching yourself computer science is challenging but it can be done.

(Incidentally I do have a degree, but I didn't study CS.)

Re: Elsevier cuts off UC’s access to its academic journals

#60

Post by jpgvm »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #34
knolax wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is programming is one of the rare white-collar jobs where a non-negligible amount of people don't have college degrees. So there's some resentment/contempt/regrets from seeing people who spent massive amounts of money and four years of their lives end up doing the same quality work as highschool drop-outs.

Do the bootcamp graduates really believe they'll be Senior Architect 10 years down the line? They'll be in for a surprise.

Why? What makes a bootcamp graduate any less qualified than a university graduate?

After 10 years experience gained in the field would vastly surpass any differences in fundamentals in my experience.

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